(00:00) hello and welcome boys and babes to the magic Hour podcast a place where we navigate through life’s Peaks and valleys with all the vulnerability and shamelessness we can muster with the help of world-class guests from all walks of life we uncover new truths and valuable tools for manifesting our Highest Potential I’m your host Mercedes Terrell along with my partner in shine Jade Bryce hey you guys wanted to remind you that taking just a moment to rate our show five stars and leave us a quick review is the best way to show us your

(00:31) support and help our show grow and we’d be so grateful if you did that right now yes and we’re actually putting together a list of people who’ve left us reviews that we want to publicly thank on our social pages so please include your name when you leave that review so we can shout you guys out yes we love you guys which is why today we’re having on a love doctor Today’s Show is completely aligned with one of mine and mercedes’s biggest goals of having happy healthy relationships with our friends family

(01:00) and of course with our romantic Partners yep and as a licensed marriage and family therapist with a private practice in New York today’s guest is working with couples and individuals to help them better understand themselves and their relationships in order to Foster healthy conscious growth having much to do with understanding the family systems as well as the deep and generational history we each hold in our own personal conditioning her work is about identifying where and how we’re recreating old patterns giving us the

(01:31) chance to heal rewrite or release them through her Live Events workshops Retreats online courses and through her very popular IG account at mindfulmft she’s helping us understand why some relationships succeed While others become unhealthy disconnected and sometimes even harmful inspiring the masses to take on the challenge of looking inward to change our stories and our relationships for the better she’s stewarding the essential of our species and for that we can all be grateful to welcome Vienna faren to the magic

(02:07) hour always say her name wrong let me do it again do you want to go from the top one more time might as well okay John take two hello and welcome boys and babes it’s the magic Hour podcast a place where we navigate through life’s Peaks and valleys with all the vulner ility and shamelessness we can muster with the help of worldclass guests from all walks of life we uncover new truths and valuable tools for manifesting our Highest Potential I’m your host Mercedes Terell along with my partner in shine

(02:44) Jade Bryce hey you guys we wanted to remind you that taking just a moment to rate our show five stars and leav us a quick review is the best way to show us your support and help our show grow we’d be so grateful if you did that right now for us yeah and we’re actually putting together a list of people who’ve left us uh reviews that we want to publicly thank on our social media pages so include your name when you leave that review so that we can shout you out there yes we love you guys and which is

(03:14) why today we’re having on a love doctor Today’s Show is completely aligned with one of M and mercedes’s biggest goals of having happy healthy relationships with our friends family and of course with our romantic Partners yes and as a licensed marriage and family therapist With Private Practice in New York today’s guest is working with couples and individuals to help them better understand themselves and their relationships in order to Foster healthy conscious growth having much to do with understanding the family systems as well

(03:46) as the deep and generational history we each hold in our own personal conditioning her work is about identifying where and how we are recreating old patterns giving us the chance to heal rewrite or release them through through her Live Events workshops Retreats online courses and through her very popular Instagram account at mindful mft she’s helping us understand why some relationships succeed While others become unhealthy disconnected and sometimes even harmful inspiring the masses to take on the challenge of looking inward to change

(04:17) our stories and our relationships for the better she’s stewarding the Ascension of our species and for that we can all be grateful to Welcome vianna faren to the magic hour my voice does not sound warmed up today yeah it doesn’t who knows what’s that’s all about G to go one more time I don’t see it changing I don’t the hope is there there somewhere you’ll probably you’ll probably the bio when she gets on but I don’t see the other two paragraphs changing I did not sleep well last night

(05:11) let me push pause on this hi hello how are you oh she got frozen how’s everybody good you froze there for a second oh all right hopefully we don’t have too many issues yeah so Mercedes is going to read your bio and then we’ll jump into the questions with you um because I know we don’t have a ton of time and we have we have a lot of questions I don’t know if uh Stephanie were was able to send them over but no I don’t have any idea what we’re talking about today but okay that’s all good and we can totally flow

(05:49) with it and okay yeah awesome yeah it’ll be nothing I’m sure too new for you so don’t worry yeah no I think it’ll be okay all right and okay ready yeah we’re recording yes we’re good as a licensed marriage and family therapist with a PR Private Practice in New York today’s guest is working with couples and individuals to help them better understand themselves and their relationships in order to Foster healthy conscious growth having much to do with understanding the family systems as well

(06:21) as the deep and generational history we each hold in our own personal conditioning her work is about identifying where and how we’re recreating old patterns giving us the chance to heal rewrite or release them through her Live Events workshops Retreats online courses and through her very popular Instagram account at mindfulmft she’s helping us understand why some relationships succeed While others become unhealthy disconnected and sometimes even hurtful inspiring the masses to take on the challenges of looking inward to

(06:52) change our stories and our relationships for the better she’s stewarding the Ascension of our species and for that we can all be grateful to welcome Vienna faren to the magic hour thank you that’s a great bio that was really really good at it wow I I want that bio that’s you’re welcome thank you thank you I feel great so happy to be here I am so happy to have you here yeah um so maybe you can first start off by taking us through your story and maybe your own conditioning in family history what that

(07:28) looked like and what how it motivated you to to become a marriage and family counselor sure um I so my parent I’m an only child and my parents they got separated when I was in first grade and then went through a nine-year divorce process which at the time was the um was New Jersey uh record um although I think it’s been broken at this point but I say that just because it was this very long and drawn out hostile process um and you know as a kid as a 5-year-old six-year-old and and onwards going through that experience and especially

(08:06) as an only child was something where I just became a very big Observer of the system that was in front of me and obviously didn’t have that language and didn’t even know what I was looking for at that age but I was doing a lot of watching and I started to recognize sort of my role within the family system um was as there was chaos and confusion and and just a lot of arguing going on around me my needs started to be met by my own self and so certainly I had my major core basic needs met but I just figured out how to handle everything

(08:47) that I needed on my own and I put a lot of my attention and energy into just getting good at the things that I liked so whether it was sports or music or language or whatever fill in the blanks like I went and I did that and I put my time and energy into it and I became um what I used to call like sort just an independent um human and then sort of like this very empowered like independent woman is what it developed into and I didn’t understand the other side of that coin as an adult for a really long time of what that

(09:23) Independence really meant and what that was blocking and pushing away in my own life but um you know it’s started from their divorce and I was in a position where I knew I never wanted to go through a divorce myself um when you observe and you experience it that way in the way that I did like my pendulum swung and I was like I never want this to happen to me and I went into psychology and undergrad and then I decided to go into marriage and family therapy um in in Graduate School uh from an unevolved place it was a I never want

(10:00) to get divorced and I never want to go through what my parents went through because I saw the impact that it had on them and for them it was different my dad is Lebanese and he at the time presented with a lot of anger and reactivity he presented with a ton of gaslighting and mic viation my mom was really emotional was not able to like self sooth and stabilize and keep up with the manipulation that my dad was putting out there and and so I just witnessed and observed all of this and I wanted to safeguard my own life my own

(10:41) relationships and so I went to school for it I was like well I’m going to learn all the tricks and tools and all the things and the reality of it is there are no tricks and there is no bypassing of this work there is a deep need to have an deep understanding of the self and of others and of our programming and our conditioning and what it was like growing up in our family systems and the role that we took on and all of the things so that we can see why we do what we do and how we show up in our adult romantic relationships

(11:12) and how we do this beautiful healing work individually and relationally so that’s a mouthful I’ll pause there um yeah now that you did go through that and that your parents divorce caused you to really be motiv ated to take on that that role and step into your um education there do you feel like there is um a really good time and place for divorce I mean I would assume your answer is yes but that sometimes we give up too soon or what are your thoughts now in divorce yeah sure I mean I think that there are absolutely times where

(11:52) separation and the end of the relationship is where the healing is um I staying or is your healing in the going and I think a lot of times like in our in our society and our world our Pro programming is that you get together and you stay together that’s the end all Beall and that is something that’s conditioned with us within us to say hierarchically and superiorly like that’s the answer is that you choose a relationship and then you do whatever you can to make it to the other side and you know of course there

(12:28) are there’s ebing and flowing relationships there’s hard weeks months sometimes even years where we’re having to really dive deep and get get inwards with ourselves and others um but also sometimes our healing is in the leaving and I think we look over that I think we like oh if you really loved each other you would stay together if you really meant like meant your vows then you would never turn your back if you really this there’s a ton of Shaving shaming messages that can happen in that space

(12:58) and you know truly a lot of the times the healing that we have to do is by using our voice taking a stand stepping away from something that is maybe unhealthy or you know a toxic dynamic or something that’s abusive or just leaning into something that moves us away from the thing that is our pattern yeah and I noticed even in my own uh upbringing with divorced parents you know my parents got divorced when I was five my and I have several sisters so I’ve kind of watched how that’s affected all of us on different

(13:35) completely different ends of the scale some you know it’s been to one side of the scale where they feel like okay I want to get married but it’s so important that I don’t get divorced that I will stay in a unhealthy or toxic or codependent relationship far too long because I’m not getting a divorce you know it becomes that mindset whereas then me on the other hand is like commitment is much more difficult for me because I don’t even want to get into the place where I might have to make that decision you know so yeah I think

(14:06) the side that we can you know as a child of divorced parents the thing we can work on most is how to reparent ourselves in the way that we would have wanted to be through that I mean I think that one of the the questions impr prompts is like what do I tell myself if if I do choose to leave right and so when you think about whether it’s siblings or friends where you see operating in a space where they’re saying like I’m unhappy or like you know I know that this isn’t for me but I can’t go like I will not get a divorce

(14:38) and it’s like well what does a what does divorce mean to you right what’s the association right is it failure is it um you know disappointment in the self like what like what is actually showing up in that space that we’re resisting or that we’re pushing away from because there’s so much that’s attached and connected to what it means for us to to get to that place a lot of times it is failure um but you know if people are in that space listening in thinking about yeah that’s me you know here is a prompt that might

(15:09) take you a little bit further to say what am I actually resisting here and then what’s familiar about that yeah why does that cause so much disruption internally for me if I sit in a in in that space of feeling like I’m failing something feeling like I’ve disappointed you know somebody in my family system let’s say or I’m the first divorce in the family that I know it’s hard to know too when it’s the relationship and when it’s just your old patterns like you can feel like like a Partners can

(15:40) come together and they can feel like they finally found the one and this is who they’ve always been waiting for but yet they still both find reasons to not feel good but it’s not like actually the relationship it’s like something that they both deal with on their own yeah um so that’s a slippery slope too it’s a slippery slope and part of it is that when we are doing our Awakening work right like when we are becoming aware of ourselves through our own introspection and exploration and Reflections and we

(16:10) trust that the other person is doing that too right then then we can begin to decipher between you know whether it’s our growth or whether it’s our patterns right because you’re so spot on and this is one of the things that people get so caught up around is like how do I know if this is actually what I should be doing whether this is my gut or whether this is my fear and you know I think a lot of times it’s it’s much more Nuance than this and there’s a lot of layers to it but I generally think that when we’re

(16:41) moving towards expansion there is an internal peace that we are feeling right if we really listen in if we really get connected with the self and sometimes that can still be tricky because our nervous systems can do very interesting things but I think when when there’s a deep sense of knowingness there can oftentimes be a deep sense of Peace that’s also happening internally and when there’s that deep sense of fear and the unknown and patterns a lot of times there’s still contraction that’s happening internally

(17:12) that there’s still chaos that is going on and so obviously again this is nuanced and so much of these answers come through deep diving work that we can do in in you know therapy for example um but I have generally found at least in my own experience when I’ve been trying to decide whether it’s like my intuition and a deep sense of knowing versus oh like is this a pattern I can feel that difference internally when it’s peace versus contraction if that makes sense yeah is there if that’s the

(17:42) case though then there’s a point where it should stop right the the chaos or the contraction yeah um well it at least tells you that there’s more information there do you know like if there’s something that’s happening it’s generally wanting more attention and so it might mean that we’re not asking it the appropriate questions or we are turning away from it with it um so yeah it’s um there’s definitely ways to deepen and enrich that work but uh and does this go into why we’re

(18:20) attracted to who we’re attracted to yeah I mean I think there’s obviously many theories out there and one of the things that I do see to be true is that when we have you know these unhealed parts right we tend to go down these Paths of um repetition or opposition and so we can either be in a space of reenactments right so like we might find a partner with whom we can play out some of our wounding with and it becomes this opportunity to try to quote unquote get it right to try to heal together maybe with you this person who seems to be

(18:57) distracted and prioritizing other things in the same way that my mother prioritized other things too um maybe if I’m just good enough or important enough or special enough to you you will be able to see that and then we will be able to heal that and I will become a priority for you and so sometimes we go into that with blinders on and we don’t know how to navigate that or we go down a path of opposition and we choose someone who looks nothing like the people who were part of our wounding or part of our trauma um and even though

(19:29) objectively from the outside looking in that might look nicer so I’ll give an example if I had an alcoholic father I may choose a partner who never wants to touch the stuff right and it’s like great I’m never GNA feel triggered in that space and I don’t have to worry about anything at all or maybe I grew up in a very conflict focused household and now I find a partner who never wants to like just doesn’t argue about anything is totally fine with everything and we never get into fights great from the

(20:05) outside looking in that looks really nice and so if we take a closer look this path of opposition can sometimes still just swing that pendulum in the other direction and there isn’t actually integration if we take the conflict example if I’ve chosen a partner who never addresses conflict and it’s always okay and is sort of needless like nothing bothers them they don’t really have much to say about anything they’re always in a good place we’re you know like we’re happy to disagree sometimes

(20:33) and that’s all right then what can happen in that space is there isn’t this opportunity to move through conflict in a functional and healthy way so does that does that make sense the sort of that swinging of that pendulum right where it’s like we often will repeat from you know the subconscious place or we’ll go to this this image and idea of what it ought to look like but it’s just us avoiding our trigger and it’s not us actually like feeling this the the like wounding and the trauma that we have and

(21:08) finding the way to navigate through it in what we call the like a path of integration right we haven’t learned anything yeah exactly right like we have to be able to touch the wounds a little bit without ripping them open and destroying them like we have to be able to touch them together because if we’re constantly in opposition land then we’re we’re not doing the healing yeah how do we know when we find the balance uh with a partner the integration yeah I mean well usually it’s because we are aware of ourselves

(21:40) we can see the triggers we are able to name them we’re able to talk about them it doesn’t mean that we never have activation it doesn’t mean that we never do things that betray the other or hurt the other or hurt the self but I think it’s that there is a space where both of us are willing to sort of like pick up the things and look at them sometimes we can’t do it in the moment sometimes it happens hours later or days later but that there is a practice of okay if we just had a tear in our relationship then

(22:11) I know that there is something worth understanding and learning about myself and learning about you and I always say that when it comes to conflict that if we can approach conflict from a space of saying okay flag in the sand obviously there’s some energy here but flag in the sand because if we are in conf conflict what this means is that there’s something really important going on here for us and if we can pause which is hard to do and there’s a lot of skill that takes that is is necessary but if we can

(22:40) pause in this space and understand what is happening in our inner world right so I have to get intimate with myself what just happened what just went on what am I feeling internally what is going on what is familiar here what do I know about this and if you can do the same uh oh what just happened for me you know and like we do that work to go into our inner worlds then we are going to learn something very important about ourselves and very important about the other person and with that we then have an opportunity to

(23:10) acknowledge witness understand have a greater sense of connection closeness and intimacy and togetherness with one another that can be very very healing so you know conflict obviously is one of those things that’s very hard for people um because of all all of the associations with it but when we can see it as an opportunity as a Gateway for deep connection and intimacy um then we start to shift it and change it but again it’s a it’s a practice of knowing how to go into that space with one another or with

(23:44) yourself and how do we change what we’re attracted to so that we can have that we can only really change what we’re attracted to when we when we understand first why we’re attracted Ed to it right like as much as it’s why so many people find themselves in patterns even though up here in their minds they know ah like I keep going for the same type of person or like I don’t want to keep going back to this person and so we might know it intellectually we might get it logically practically but when we haven’t done our inner

(24:19) healing work right if we haven’t addressed the wounds or the trauma then we’re going to find ourselves back in in that space because it feels like a lifeline for us we might say h I really want a partner who is XYZ right and it’s honest and transparent and non-manipulative and like all these things that it’s like we’re so clear on and so obvious to us and yet we find ourselves in that space and so if we keep going back to something that our minds know is not right for us yeah it is the most beautiful indicator that we

(24:54) are not we have not fulfilled on some type of healing work around trauma in our lives because that’s what trauma does right it moves us into a space where we don’t understand why we’re doing something it’s not because we’re dumb we’re not idiot right like it’s not there we’re not stupid people walking around this world like oh this is fun you know like I really like doing this thing that hurts me you know it’s like that’s that’s not it for for the M confused about like why do I keep

(25:25) choosing people and how do I like wake up to this what the arrow is pointing to is that there is something within you that still needs your attention because you cannot change what you are are attracted to until you heal something that is still yearning for the thing that you’re trying to avoid absolutely and I think it almost yearns for a definition this moment yearns for a definition of what chemistry actually means like we use that term oh well I just did or didn’t have chemistry with that person but I think if you know the

(25:58) general population who’s struggling with this looping pattern of you know going back to either the same toxic partner or finding just another person to fill that same place and do this run the same old script with again um if we had a better definition of what chemistry actually means and why the chemicals in your body are reacting in a certain way because of the storyline the pattern that you’re talking to we might have a better um way to move through this and change our habit of going after someone who’s going

(26:29) to inspire those chemicals totally I mean I think a lot of times we confuse trauma bonds for chemistry yeah you know I think it’s like when we feel this like magnetism and we feel this deep sense of like gosh passion and energy um and familiarity you know I think a lot of times when we meet someone so quickly and we’re like whoa you feel like home or you feel and you’re like well wait home was really D functional you know it’s like wait a sec like what feels really familiar and and so it’s it’s why

(27:04) chemistry can feel very confusing to us because we can very much be drawn into something right away that is actually going to be something that’s potentially unhealthy for us and that might be because of these trauma bonds because trauma bonds will definitely go off of chaos sometimes you know they’ll go off of um the conflict and the the vibrancy between um the two people and so yes it’s a great point of you know just being aware of what is coming up for me and slowing slowing that process down a little bit to know what is true

(27:45) and to see what’s familiar about this um you know a lot of times relationships that are incredible start off really slow you know they’re like you don’t feel a chemistry really at all and you’re not you’re not sure but you you go again and you go again and you take another date and over a little bit of time um you know we start to see that this is actually someone who we connect deeply with and where the attraction does start to build and I think unfortunately as a society we have hierarchically set up love or the the

(28:19) act of falling in love to to have superiority to it that it should feel like fire and you should know right away and if you’re not like in love in those first few moments then it’s probably not it right and the reality of it is is that this act of falling in love looks so many different ways for everyone and when we create this Pinnacle of what it ought to look like and then our story doesn’t look like that at all it’s very confusing and disarming you know if we’re looking at movies or if we’re

(28:52) looking at television shows or you know friends who have said oh this is like how I fell in love and that’s that’s the epitome of it you know it’s it’s very hard to know how to place your own and to feel grounded in it when it looks dissimilar to that yeah yeah we had someone on the other day who um was an expert in Kink and healing through sexual fetish and kink um so you know someone might have a storyline that says I need to be dominated and maybe they had a daddy issue and they someone who

(29:22) didn’t make them feel safe and so they need this Superior figure and through you you know through consciously using sexual fetish or Kink to um create a safe setting that allows you to play out that story and have a positive reaction to it obviously you know orgasm sexual you know have this this validation that happens in that um intimate of a setting is really cool because it kind of I just it came to mind because the way that we like you’re talking about think about love being this thing that has to be in

(29:56) a split second we are you know know love at first sight we’re having this Disney Story play out and um that type of lust really is probably what that is um is very much tied to Well yeah if we played out that Disney story with the love at first sight and all that and then it played out well and in our favor and we’re able to work through all those traumas like you’re talking about together with this other person fantastic but we know that that is not how it always happens so when we talked to this woman about using Kink and

(30:30) fetish to to consciously move through some of that as therapy um I thought that that might be a better uh or more realistic option to what we’re offering right now um to what you’re talking about with the love and love at first sight stuff I don’t know just another option to or another route to to use the chemistry that we feel with another person and work through it in a positive way instead of lay all like oh well if I feel this feeling with someone then I’m going to have to marry you and have kids

(31:02) with you and then find out later that that was just lust or some other totally yeah there’s there are endless modalities of how we can do this healing work and I I just I love how many different areas we can pick and choose from and obviously this is so unique for each individual out there to think like what is safe for me and what feels like a beautiful container for me to heal and what’s required for me to get into that space and yeah for some people it’s talk therapy for others it might be hypnotherapy for some it might be um a

(31:37) form of sematic work for others it might be this you know very um safe exploration through Kink and power dynamics um for others maybe it’s using psychedelics right like we’re seeing so many people tap into these different modalities where we can really begin to connect to a deeper sense of healing so I love I love that I want to hear that podcast and get honest too you know we have to get honest with what the feelings really are and what the chemicals really are I think we only get to do that once we’ve done some of our

(32:10) own shadow work and figured out like you’re saying the patterns are running so I know we often tend to project the blame our unhappiness in a relationship like basically when we’re unhappy in a relationship I know I’ve done this for most of my relationships I find a way to blame it on my partner because I don’t want to take the responsibility for it and of course that has often led to me thinking that the solution is to find a different partner when now you know I’m learning that that is not the reality of

(32:40) the situation I need to look at my own [ __ ] but how is changing our partner not the answer often yeah right like it it usually is not in that it doesn’t mean that there aren’t circum more aligned Partners out there for us because yes that’s probably true many times but that if we do not do the work to understand what has linked me in this Dynamic then generally we will be drawn into the same thing again right so it may be absolutely 100% true that you are in a relationship that is unhealthy for you

(33:19) and dysfunctional for you and so it still might be the right answer to leave that relationship and end it but moving straight into another relationship without understanding more about the dysfunction or what has not felt healthy for you is generally going to wind up leading you to another Dynamic that’s going to play it out and it might play it out in a different way right the context of it might be a little bit different but it the the familiarity of the wounding is still going to be the same until we happen to the wounding differently right

(33:52) and so you know it’s it’s it’s why people you often hear the like the lesson keeps showing until you you know like until you listen to it until you change shift it in some way and I think that is true when it comes to to relationships as well um so yeah it’s very common I hear a lot of people say like you know I just need a new partner and it it’s not you know have I ever seen a new partner come in and hold different boundaries and you know hold up a different mirror for someone else sure I’m not going to say that it never

(34:26) happens and that you know it’s not out there but I would say that the majority of the time when we’re wanting to jump ship what we’re needing to do is hold up a mirror to ourselves to have a deeper understanding of what’s going on there so that we can pivot and shift ourselves into a new type of dynamic so that we I always say make your pain wiser um and what I mean by that is like if you know we all have a story we all have pain we all have wounding we all have um you know some type of trauma on the you know

(34:58) on a spectrum of course um but when we’re going through life and relationships it’s like our pain must become wiser as it goes through all of the things like as it otherwise the pain just has to keep repeating over and over and over again until it wants to learn the lesson and it wants to speak up or set the boundary or do something a little bit different and so you know if we can begin to make our pain wiser then we’re not going to get the same quote unquote lessons over and over and over again yeah it’s hard when um I feel like

(35:35) when you have I noticed for me um I catch myself sometimes feeling like I have too much trauma to be in a healthy relationship because in the midst of conflict my brain won’t do what I want it to do and then I later realize like why like why did I go there why did I react that way and so I I then I get in this mindset of like well maybe you have too much trauma to like navigate through conflict in a healthy way because you just have so many patterns that you keep thinking you’ve undone until you’re in the Heat of the Moment

(36:07) and then you just you know so it can be really frustrating so I’m curious um with that uh the the pain sentence that you said um your pain being wiser yeah what would be how many well we did interview someone recently who was an expert in the Gman method and they said 27 times of that type of practice would have to happen where you’re in an instance where that old pattern arises and you recognize it and then reset in order for you to really feel confident in that totally I mean I think that Jade the this idea like you’re you’re not too

(36:47) much even when it feels like your patterns are in your driver seat and you’re not and those moments can feel very overwhelming and I think a lot of times the narratives for any of us who have ever been in the position that you’re describing right now is like you know like Can I Be Loved this way does anybody want to deal with like something that can feel so heavy to us and you know I know I’ve questioned when I when I feel like I’m in a position like that I my narratives were like am I actually

(37:22) lovable you know like and I don’t feel really feel wor deserving of love when this is what’s showing up now I’m able to separate that out a little bit from like the like the bigger story of am I deserving of love and am I worthy of love like yes I believe that right but I think when these moments happen one of the things that shoots in immediately is like oh like yuck like I’m un I really am unlovable in this moment this is a lot yikes and like when I see myself you know mine probably looks different than

(37:55) yours um but like mine when I can be in conflict and I need to prove my point and I double down and I can get vicious and like you know and I can move into this space and I can observe myself doing it but I don’t stop myself from doing it and then I’m like hand over mouth like oh my God gross like this is no one wants to be around this no one wants to love someone like this and it’s those moments are so hard to climb out of because it’s so TR like we feel it we’re like gosh yeah that’s that’s ducky

(38:27) that’s not something that I feel proud of I know I don’t feel proud of it in moment and I I don’t know if you’re in Partnership right now um or not but I think it’s you know when we’re in this space where we’re committed to doing this work even though we don’t have it all figured out even though sometimes it gets really really heavy which it does um you know I don’t think one that were ever finished products and I also don’t think that we need to be finished products to date or be in relationship I

(38:58) think what we should have is a willingness to look at ourselves if we’re going to be in relationship right if there were ever a prerequisite to dating like you know well how do I know that it’s okay for me to date or be in relationship like like if you’re at least willing to do your work like be willing to look at yourself even when it’s hard but do not set the bar that we need to be without trauma or that our trauma needs to be healed before because a lot of times espe you know in my opinion we can only do so much

(39:29) individually and this is not uh like preaching for codependency at all so for anybody who’s you don’t need another person to do anything it’s like actually again I know it’s my opinion but I believe that when it’s relationships that wound and are a part of creating trauma then it’s relationships that we need in order to have healing and and to heal the trauma right it’s like we can go very far individually on our own but at the end of the day I think we need the mirror in front of us and we need

(40:02) this container with other individuals in it with whom we can have those hard conversations or conflict where you can’t you can’t change your operating system and you do the old thing but that person stands side by side with you and they know why that’s hard for you and they maybe hold that space and obviously we need there to be safety and it’s not a um it’s not a dangerous environment and it’s not about allowing abuse to happen but it is to hold that space as we try to navigate this together because

(40:39) I have certainly felt that with a witness who loves me as I do my healing work that has been a beautiful motivation for me and it has sometimes felt like the container for me to meet some of these parts and continue that deep healing work so I know that was a big mouthful no it was that’s awesome and I think like when you do feel like your um drama has changed your brain to not work the way you want it to that’s a self-loathing and then um what you said like uh okay but I’m willing to look at it that’s self-love so yeah beautiful

(41:11) yeah and it’s and it’s also love to the other like I am willing to look at it for me and I’m also willing to look at it for you I don’t like harming myself I don’t like harming you I don’t like you know we don’t love doing that and so when I am willing to take a look an honest look at myself and you’re willing to take an honest look at yourself then we have a possibility to start to change some of those like the wiring that’s what’s so beautiful about neuroplasticity is that we can rewire

(41:41) and reroute and even when we’ve been doing something a certain way for years decades you know I know it can feel overwhelming but the reality of it is is that um we can I think right now this time in our history of the world with everything that’s going on I’ve been paying attention to the programming and the operating system that’s getting updated as we speak right now the fact that I don’t pay that close attention to how often I used to wash my hands or touch my face and all of a sudden I am

(42:19) aware of it because something big enough is happening for me to wake up to it it’s just a simple example but like every time I want to go I’m like NOP not gonna touch my face and what happen we had a we have a vir like there’s something very serious that’s going on but bam look at the programming look at how people are starting to shift all the things we said we can’t do we are beginning to do right and so I just Ed that as like this moment in time where we are being shown right directly

(42:49) in front of us that we can update operating systems like that if we need to right that’s true us unfortunate to hit rock bottom sometimes in order to do it you know it’s frustrating um but that’s part of the human condition I’m hoping one day we will you know part of this paradigm shift that’s happening right now with covid-19 is I think we’re going to see that kind of Wayan to okay how can we be a little more preventative instead of just reacting you know yeah um and to your point earlier about how we can

(43:23) rewire our brains and our perspective can change I just wanted to bring up a quote from from your page that you say you cannot change someone else um what you change is how you relate to them not changing so I just thought that was a beautiful quote to what you were speaking about there but I do want to ask you when we’re talking about all this growth that we do being introspective people you know trying to be as healthy as we can in relationship when is it the right time to live leave a relationship though yeah I mean it’s it’s very

(43:57) nuanced obviously for for all of us and you know there’s no there’s no guide book for it but I do think that when there is complete resistance from another person or you see them unwilling to do any of their own individual work um you know obviously the amount of time that we’re willing to hold in that space is is is for us to decide but I think in the shutdown in the resistance we have I know you had somebody on who who does a lot of the gotman um work but you know in his research in their research Julian

(44:39) John um you know the four relationship killers are defensiveness criticism contempt and stonewalling and so when those things are constantly there it’s not about them being there sometimes we all do all of them yeah um but if those are things that are const present in your relationship and person cannot look at themselves and and totally just is living in denial and there’s just a constant form of manipulation and gaslighting you know can can those people ever change sometimes right um but I think part of our work is to see

(45:14) who is in front of me right now and you know it’s interesting right because where we are in this conversation right now sort of Loops us back to but I’m like what our commitments are in you know the conversation we were having earlier was like but I promised and my vows to never leave or I can never get a divorce or I committed to this person so even though they are manipulating or gaslighting or being abusive like that I still need to stay because you know I signed on the dotted line and so obviously you know everybody is having

(45:45) to make very important decisions for themselves and there’s many layers to it I think when we talk about this a lot of people are like what about if you have children or what they’re going through a very serious like trauma in their lives and this is not who they are and like there can be all of these asterix’s that present for all of us right and at the end of the day I think you know we are meant to feel expansive in relationships and at least we’re meant to feel that way the majority of the time it does not

(46:15) mean that we never contract it does not mean that we never feel disconnected from people the reality of it is is that we do but when the majority of the time you are in contraction um meaning you are having to abandon yourself in order to meet the needs of another you know I think like becoming less of yourself right that change is about expansion coming further into yourself versus change that makes you abandon you in order to make the system still operate I think if you have been in a pattern for a long time where you have needed to

(46:47) abandon yourself in order to keep the relationship afloat that certainly is something that requires your attention um you know I’m not ever here obviously to make a decision or a call on a person’s relationship but I would say that for our mental health and our overall health we want our relationships to feel generally expansive and that it should never have us abandoning ourselves in it you know I think we’re constantly we’re I this quote is an important one right where we trade authenticity right we trade authenticity

(47:25) for attachment and we Le that really early on when we’re children what do we do what do we begin to do oh I’m fine I’m totally happy I don’t I don’t need anything mom just so that mom stays happy like what do we do what do we leave what do we give up about ourselves in order to make sure that the system says um okay and when we’re having to do that in our adult romantic relationships and really thinking like what am I trading in what am I not being authentic about what am I afraid if I were authentic what would

(47:59) happen if I was transparent right now if I spoke my mind if I said what I needed to say what am I afraid will happen and if you answer that question honestly well my partner will listen to it we’ll be able to move through it or my partner would leave me in a second or it would turn into a conflict or they would become vicious and mean towards me like what’s that answer right because if you are holding things back in significant ways in your relationship the effort to maintain its stability then that the relationship needs

(48:32) attention very serious attention because that is that is not something that can um maintain itself for a long period of time yeah that’s a great piece of advice there and what I’m hearing you say is that when our growth is discouraged by our partner or by the you know by being in this relationship then that’s definitely a a red flag of this probably isn’t the right place for you um a lot of times sorry I was just going to say that a lot of times growth in US feels really threatening to others yeah where

(49:09) are you g to grow to where are you right seriously where are you leaving me for right and I think a lot of times when growth feels threatening to someone else it may be because they are resistant to looking at themselves right that’s where it gets into narcissism and it gets into a lot of you know the resistance um but you again you can’t change a person all you can do is your own stuff and hopefully be the light you know maybe they’ll see that you’re doing really well in in that growth and follow along um in whatever

(49:43) way they need to explore theirs um what you what you brought up there though about attachment and um us losing ourselves in our authenticity Yeah in our relationships brings to mind something you’ve written also I’m going to quote you again you said losing yourself in an attempt to keep someone else is one of the greatest abandonments of our time so I don’t know if you have anything to add to that but that just really struck me as something that I have definitely done where you know I jump into a relationship and I

(50:13) completely disregard all the things I was previously interested in for this person’s interest and you know I I lose myself in it and I’ve seen that happen for a lot of my my friends and family as well yeah I mean when we have the fear of abandonment or the fear of not being chosen or not being good enough which is such in the collective you know it’s like so many of us have that fear and so when when that is there and it’s in the driver’s seat then we will do anything even abandon ourselves right we’ll do

(50:42) anything to hold on to it we want to keep it at all costs and that that piece is it’s just it’s important to acknowledge and even if that’s all we can do right now in this moment as a listener is acknowledged that like yes indeed that is what I do it again points us to where our healing work needs to be right is like you don’t have to be complete in this SP space right as we’ve said already all we need to do is be willing to look so if you’re listening you’re like gosh darn I do that I I do not want to be left and so I

(51:15) cling to something at the expense of myself sure okay yeah like all right raise the hand and be gentle in that space with yourself but then like a little bit of a nudge to say what do I need to look at because usually it’s in response to something that has previously happened in our lives that has placed a fear there for us to begin with right whether it’s an abandonment whether it’s um never being chosen as a child not feeling good enough right so um it may not be those things for you but I would ask you to consider like

(51:47) what do I have to trade and what do I abandon in order to try to keep people in my life who do I have to be who do I have to become how do I have to show up what are the things that I have to say what do I have to look like what do I need to do what how do I have to pretend in order to keep you and get really honest with with those question I’m curious because faces parts of yourselves sorry you froze up I didn’t mean to all I just going to say that also yes that’s the work I definitely need to apply more I mean

(52:26) I’ve come a long way you know obviously been recognizing some of this in myself for a while now so I’ve come a long way but I still see places where I Lose Myself um and I guess you’ve kind of answered how we reverse that we recognize it in the first place but then um doing the work or how do how do we exactly apply that maybe I just want a more straightforward like how do we apply once we’ve recognized okay here’s how I’m not being off I to myself and I am losing myself in this relationship

(53:00) because of these abandonment things and maybe I’m digging up the the the real core stories probably from my childhood that tell me I’m not worthy or yeah not worthy of being authentically me because someone might leave me if I am or that’s my worry now how do I use that in my relationships to or how do I use that knowledge to not get lost yeah so part the knowledge must also be met with grieving right so before or we can just apply it right where it’s like ah okay I’ve had this aha moment and I now know this part

(53:33) about my life and the origin story okay I got went into my family system I see it here’s the pattern yada y yada boom here’s how it’s showing up present day it what makes it very hard almost near impossible to just shift it with the information is because we haven’t felt fully enough right A lot of times we are collectors of all of this wisdom and understanding and aha moments that we have along the way way and then we want to apply them without grieving grieving what it felt like as a child grieving

(54:04) what it’s felt like all alone feeling into that trauma having somebody witness that with us that’s why therapy you know with with the right person can be a really powerful experience because there’s a space to release there’s a space to yes Mercedes I think you said before like the the inner child healing work right is like and that self-parenting right is like there is work that needs to be done between ah I’ve identified something in my childhood and now I’m seeing it and trying to connect the dots in my adult

(54:38) life and what I would say is the missing link is that I have not felt enough I have not grieved enough I have not and whatever grief looks like for you but it might be like I need to sob for myself or I might need to sob in the arms of you know a friend that like there needs to be something that happens otherwise we are not feeling what needs to be felt and then we cannot apply what it is that we know yeah exactly I have a question about how you said that um sometimes people get worried that the partner is going to

(55:15) grow um I have this Obsession where I worry my partner’s not going to grow um and so I I’m like uh oh always wanting us to read the books and always wanting us to have the conscious talks because I have I wonder where that fear comes from is it a fear that like it because the other fear makes total sense I just don’t know where the fear would come from when you’re like obsessed with making sure your partner is growing because in a way that’s kind of wanting to change your partner too well I mean I think that type of change

(55:48) generally is the like healthy functional change right is like let’s get to know ourselves more in a in a healthy way um I think sometimes that fear is if you know that you’re growing Jade then and then you and you don’t want this relationship to end right like part of what you’re saying is that if you don’t come along with me what I’m afraid of is that we will not be that makes so much sense yeah and I think you know so when we know the self right where you’re like I’m in this work you know and yep like

(56:21) we’ve got it and I’m F I’m needing new parts of myself and all that but I I want you to come long and when I feel your resist or I feel that you’re not maybe as interested in this as I am right I think a lot of times that concern can be shoot like will you be able to stand I call it stand shoulder-to-shoulder with me because I don’t want to leave you and I don’t want this relationship to end and it’s sort of the flip of the abandonment like I don’t want to abandon you I don’t want to have to leave you I

(56:51) don’t want to have to disappoint you I don’t want to have to feel the sadness and grief of this relationship ship not being the expansive connective one that I’ve dreed and envisioned for myself that makes so much sense yeah um I I did want to go back to something you touched on a little bit but just to double down on it because it’s something I’m really I I wouldn’t say struggling with but working through right now for myself is why does we sometimes put emphasis on the potential we see in a partner rather

(57:24) than on their actuality so even I want to just say this too and we’ve talked about it on the show before but recently I kind of noticed that I didn’t kind of notice I it hit me like a freight train that I have been using the words I love you to basically in place of I love the way you validate my ego I’m trying to separate the fact that I’m in love with this potential of a person first of all that I’ve put onto them so this fantasy then I’m also in love with the way that they’re just

(58:01) validating me not necessarily you know whatever Real Love is or unconditional love is and so maybe you can put some of those pieces together for me yeah I mean one there is truth in that we all have the capacity you know to grow into something and I think we want to look for and see um the possibility but the reality of it is more times than others it’s when we connect much more with potential and possibility it allows us to abandon our boundaries and um and really like some of the hard decisions of who is in front of me right now and

(58:44) and so in a lot of ways it’s our way of it’s this micromanipulation of the self right is like and listen it doesn’t need to be um like this deep inten that we are doing we not even realize that we’re doing it but there’s this micro manipulation that’s happening of I’m going to keep feeding myself a different story than the one that’s in front of me I’m gonna keep giving myself a different story so that I have to respond to that story instead of the one in front of me because the one in front

(59:17) of me feels hard yeah generally right the one like this I like this the one in front of me is confronting so if I’m just tap it over to the side and I’m gonna tell this make up something yeah yeah I’m gonna make up something and you know how we get away with it is because generally we’re putting them in a better light look how kind Look I See You In This Way yeah look how great you could be like and so none of us are generally saying like your potential is real [ __ ] like generally saying like your

(59:48) potential is just live up to this thing that I want right so no one’s like they’re not pissed about how you are framing them right right and so yes what it is is these micromanipulations and really the these distractions of if I was not distracted and if I was not manipulating what’s in front of me right now what would be there and what about that is like I don’t want to go there it’s the noo Zone like what about that is is intimidating confronting emotional because if you were to answer that

(1:00:20) you’re G to get a lot of intimacy within the self of like o shoot and then it’s a direction what do I have to do about this yeah yeah and and you know and then I think the secondary my ego says that first okay we’re gonna make up this whole story and we’re gonna project this this potential on this person it’s totally not fair to them obviously and then secondarily when it goes oh [ __ ] you’ve been projecting this potential onto this person well that’s because their actuality is [ __ ]

(1:00:52) you know it has this other story that’s like well no it’s still their fault it’s still their fault and just not wanting to take responsibility for what really is just my responsibility of my perspective you know changing my perspective of that person if that’s what I choose to do totally and I think also like what does it keep intact for me that I want to keep intact by keeping them in that position you follow that right like oh I keep getting validated I keep getting put on a pedestal I keep what you know

(1:01:23) what I’m yes I’m not abandoned you’ll never leave me of of what it what we could Tinker around with but right like if I had to say like what would I be losing by facing what’s in front of me right what’s the threat to me yeah I know a lot of us we need valid just validation period yeah uh like affirmation so how do we do that better for ourselves I think that’s what I want to know yeah yeah and it’s it’s gosh you know what I what I learned was for me in in all of this work and obviously with working

(1:02:04) with so many people is that the way that we do that is by facing the things that we don’t like to validate about ourselves and that’s not fun right like it’s really not fun to look at the things that we reject that we disown I think one of you talked about Shadow work before it’s like all of the things that are in our shadow bringing it out into the light we want validation to try to like swing swing it so that oh good right tell me the good stuff right but how do we do it for ourselves really the

(1:02:34) answer is by looking at all of the things that we dislike and reject and want to disown about ourselves and bringing them into the light to restore them right to affect them differently because then we don’t need to rely on others to validate the things that we already you know maybe we like about ourselves already right like in order to do that for ourselves it means bringing the things that are in the dark out of the dark into the light being with them and what’s funky about that in the beginning is that we won’t like them for

(1:03:04) a while it’s it’s really hard work it’s like what do we do with them once we look at them well it’s that’s the healing work right it’s like why don’t I like it where did you come from where do I not have a boundary with you why do you show up how do I how do I be in charge of you instead of you being in charge of me like all the parts like for me right my part of needing to be right and like doubling down I don’t like that part right and so how do I self sooe or validate myself if I have too many of

(1:03:33) those things hiding out in my shadow impossible really impossible to truly believe ourselves when we’re like you’re a good person I really like you you like you look in the mirror and you’re like okay like let’s do some affirmations and we’re like [ __ ] that’s not true like we can see through ourselves because we are within ourselves yeah so if we’re not being truly honest doing that hard work which is H it is gut-wrenching sometimes but it’s really in my opinion it’s a big part of

(1:04:04) um the only the only way so that we don’t need it from others of course validation is wonderful we we want to accept it from others when it’s when it’s there there’s nothing wrong with that at all but I think when we’re trying to cling to it what it’s what it’s pointing at is what is in my shadow and maybe more specifically Jade like that work is to be with it to understand where it came from a little bit before of what I was saying is like how why have I not been able to set boundaries

(1:04:33) with you the part um what do you serve how have you protected me in the past what are you protecting me from maybe anymore as much right like the reason why I need to be right that protects me from something right because for me being wrong was dangerous having a gaslighting father like for me being wrong was de was this is Extreme but was death you know it was like H you lose and that’s not safe and if you lose against him it can be really devastating and I should give it up to to my dad because he has um made a big turnar

(1:05:11) around in his life um and is so honest and so transparent and he always laughs he’s like you always make me sound so terrible to all these I’m like no no no Dad sorry all of our parents were like no no let I’ll give you the shout out Joe is good now he’s honest and wonderful thanks to all and dks right but you know when I think about like this part of me that I’ve like disliked and wanted to reject and like no it’s not there there’s a reason she shows up and so when we start to bring both

(1:05:42) ownership and compassion to all of these I here and I also need to be in charge of you I also need to own you you can’t just run rampant that’s how you hurt other people right that’s how I hurt other people that I love right then I can start to bring healing to that so this would probably be an entire podcast on its own yeah right like of like how to do that work but I think you know that answer I hope at least we’re taking a few things away from it is like to self validate validate in a very

(1:06:16) authentic and honest way requires us to take all of the things that we disown and reject and dislike and hate about ourselves and move it into the light and begin to look at them one by one and find both ownership and compassion for each as we start to move through life with them a little bit differently yeah and I think that’s a beautiful tool of uh you could do that probably at home journaling freew writing this type of thing uh but as you’re saying it I’m having a aha a moment epiphany of the

(1:06:48) fact that I consider myself a workaholic and I know that that’s not the favorite part of myself um and I think that putting these pieces together it’s very much because I’m running from doing the hard gut-wrenching work of sitting with myself and being still and you know where all that I know whenever I’m still all that [ __ ] floods up that I need to really look at and um so in in noticing that myself I wrote down here therapy and underlined it twice exclamation mark which I’m a huge believer in but I don’t take enough time

(1:07:22) to do it and the reason I bring that up is just because if anyone listening a course telling myself this as well has a hard time setting aside time to journal and do the free writing and ask yourself all these questions and do the gut-wrenching work sit in a float tank whatever it is having a therapist appointment that you have to pay to sit on maybe now because of covid-19 we’ll do it via Skype but um gives you kind of doesn’t allow you another choice you know because you have an appointment in your day to go

(1:07:51) sit with someone who’s going to ask you to do the hard work and you’ve set aside an hour or two hours to do that work um and it’s work so if you’re a workaholic like me you should be used to doing the work now just make it the work that’s actually going to help you in the long term be the best you know human and have the best life experience you can so that’s my two cents and I’ve heard you um talk about free writing as well um so the um the example you gave about uh finding out like where it’s coming

(1:08:23) from um so when your mind I’m trying to make this as simple as possible for everyone listening so so if you’re constantly seeking validation of so say my um worthiness my wound is worthiness and so um that I recognized okay that came from and my mom’s the most positive most loving person just like you were saying your dad’s flipped flipped it so has my mom but as a child she would try to commit suicide but blame me for it tell me she didn’t want to live because of me so then I grew up with this worthiness wound of I’m not

(1:08:53) lovable people are going to leave because I’m not good enough to stick around for so when I’m seeking validation from a partner um wanting to feel that worthiness wound and I know where it’s coming from when someone’s in that moment where their brain is um needing like thirsting for that validation what is the go-to like maybe thought that you can um tell yourself you know where this is coming from do you just then just tell yourself because I know you said affirmations you still know that what you’re feeling

(1:09:27) isn’t lining up with what you’re trying to affirm yeah I mean I think if you’ve done some good trauma work already and like you know have some of the foundational pieces you may you know that moment may just be like just pause you know like just pause for a moment instead of reacting instead of reacting and sometimes we can’t right like so if that doesn’t work for you no worries right but like I think just seeing like if I if I’ve done some work and I recognize this and I know that there’s that part

(1:10:01) of me that wants to make sure that I’m worthy in this moment because I’m questioning it but I know why I’m questioning where it’s coming from and I know you know I know my origin story like can I just pause in this moment I choose to pause for 10 seconds the first time um and then maybe another time I try and pause for a minute and maybe the next time I realize that my pause can only last one second right it doesn’t matter right but that you’re just creating a little bit of space between that stimulus and whatever your

(1:10:35) response is going to be and one of the things that I have um encouraged people to do is leave voice memos um voice memo is something when you are in a really grounded and clear and loving space with yourself to write um like a little bit of a script right and so when you feel true and honest and authentic and you’re having a really good day I would encourage you to write a a script and then record and hear your loving voice right that says like hey Jade it’s Jade and I know that’s a little weird but I’m here because today

(1:11:16) I’m having a really great day and I want you to know that in the moment when you’re feeling unworthy you’re not and I know that’s true because today you know X Y and Z and and so in this moment when you’re pausing just know I’ve got you and just know that we’ll Circle back around and whatever you need to do you need to do and that’s okay but I just want you to know that the story that you’re telling yourself right now in this moment is not the story that I believe about you and like sending you

(1:11:50) love and then s you know and I think because a lot of yeah like I think a lot of times when we’re in it we really like and we’re like well just think about step one two and three and then we’re in it and we’re like [ __ ] I’m sorry it’s fine all logic goes out the window yeah and like I’m not doing that but if you can hear your voice and it’s like so sweet and it’s just like hey girl you know and like how are you today and like you know I know that this day would come because we’ve been here before and you

(1:12:20) hear yourself there’s something about hearing your own voice in those moments that’s just like okay I think I might be able to believe you because you’re me yeah yeah I don’t lie to me like that you know so I think if there was like a tip um I would really encourage everybody to leave themselves a voice memo on a day that feels really grounding really loving really that you’re going to want to hear and need to hear in that in that time and at least we have cell phones now and it’s not like that episode where Ross

(1:12:56) lost himself a voicemail and Rachel found it totally right it’s like the technology right now of just really like H the Gratitude of the things that we have access to yeah so if you have access to that do that yeah really does so kind of off of that um when it comes to how we work emotions through our bodies like after a bad breakup for instance why does some of us tend to cling to the suffering and some of us on the other side of the spectrum we like deny the suffering completely and pretend like it’s not

(1:13:33) happening a lot of it’s to do with our conditioning and programming of around what we observed and watched um and so potentially like how a parental system navigated it or how we navigated them right so when you think like where do I move to safety each of us is different like do I go towards for safety or do I go away for safy safety right and so I think why some of us do it one way or another way is just where was the safety when we needed it what did we see um because for some of us the safety was in

(1:14:07) getting the heck away and for others it was clinging and going towards depending on your scenario and situation and what your what your system looked like or where you lived or you know what was going on in the world uh around you at that time so clinging is more of a victim mentality where we’re going to stay in the suffering we’re going to be punished what is yeah I’m trying to think like if there’s anything about leaving that um like clinging to the story is beneficial because that’s part

(1:14:40) of now who you’ve identified yourself with as someone who has to be in suffering yes yes exactly yeah spot on and on the other end the other person is denying it because they obviously don’t want to feel those those negative feels and feel any suffering or they feel they have to be macho or whatever it is um you’ve said something about asking yourself is this serving me whenever you’re feeling one way or the other way whether you’re feeling in that suffering as a loop or feeling in that denial as a

(1:15:12) loop that’s right and I think again obviously you’re hearing me talk a lot about honesty and transparency the self a lot of times when we’re doing something that’s unhealthy or you know seemingly dysfunctional and I ask the question of like what is this serving most people are like I know it’s not serving anything it’s like no it is serving something that’s why you are doing it right and what is it serving it’s serving the fact that I don’t have to have the hard conversation and so

(1:15:41) then I don’t feel confronted by that or it’s serving that I don’t need to feel my emotions because I don’t know how to do that or I don’t want to do that right and so when we get very clear on what is this act serving right what is it protect protecting me from a lot of times it might be something that’s really confronting um but ultimately really healthy and an opportunity for transformation for us yeah and I think we can use our emotions intentionally you know have the we have the ability to

(1:16:11) go okay you know what this is a bad breakup or this is something hard I’m going through and I need to grieve it and I need to go through these emotions and I have you know some tools of how to sit with that and maybe I’m going to take a certain amount of time you know an hour to cry about this or whatever it is and scream and yell and journal but after that hour I’m going to allow myself to come out of this and go hang out with friends or you know go outside and take a jog in the sunshine or whatever it is yeah yeah yeah I think

(1:16:38) it’s great about getting intentional with a period of time of like I’m going to feel for you know 20 40 minutes whatever it is whatever feels appropriate to you but then when that buzzer goes off I’m going to move my energy you know it’s really important to not just stay in it all the time we oury and soting deliberate in allowing ourselves to feel intentional with that time sitting down to do it every single day and you know that can be very hard for people who are not used to feeling and going inwards in that way but um you

(1:17:14) know even if you just do it for a minute you know like if that’s your start literally yeah literally yeah beautiful do it for a minute put it down and then leave and go outside or you know do whatever you need to do make yourself some breakfast um but start somewhere yeah and I noticed in myself too um this confirmation bias comes up where I will literally stay in a narrative that is unhealthy because I have it’s it’s like tied to making myself correct even though it’s something I don’t want to be

(1:17:48) correct about like I’m not worthy or you know this person left me because whatever the reason I have in my head and that I’ve been used as part of my pattern forever and ever to essentially to keep myself down um I use them leaving as a confirmation of well yeah I’m that’s because I’m not worthy I’m not good enough or whatever the thing is that’s yeah sick I stay in a narrative so because I tell myself well I still want to know the answer because I can’t I can’t stand uncertainty I can’t stand

(1:18:18) not uh having some sort I don’t like ambiguity I like to you know feel like I have some sort of black and white answer black and white in the Box answer yeah yeah I I think I I I might have lost you a little bit in there but I think I traced everything that you guys said for the most part and I think you know part of the thing around confirmation bias is that if like what has to happen if the story isn’t true you know we we all sort of understand what the confirmation bias is and got it we’re looking for those

(1:18:53) things fine but what changes what do I have to change if this story isn’t true I have to take on an whole new damn responsibility of showing up for myself right right be careful in the unknown yeah right like and what does it mean for me to actually just be worthy right what does it mean you’re like like what happens in those spaces right like sometimes it’s like it can be so much it is easier to just go with the bias it’s so much easier to go with the bias than to shift and pivot and try on a new

(1:19:29) story and there’s so many parts of that that are confronting gosh was somebody else lying to me have I been lying to myself this entire time like what about my operating system has to update if I that story isn’t true and Mercedes like you said shoot like a whole heck of a lot has to change if that is not true right and that’s hard and do I want to do that work yeah always resistance it’s like all I am is a bundle of resistance I’m like come on massage I’m giving myself a massage just to thing up oh W

(1:20:03) okay um so good do you have any tips just on the end of that um that allow us to move through that process with a little more grace and ease to get to a more balanced place a little e any tips that you feel like have worked well for you yeah I mean I think one is like if we start off with with understanding like what what are the biases that I hold and carry like first naming them and then I’d say like what does each one serve and what does each one block and just starting to get familiar with like why do I keep this what do I gain from this

(1:20:40) and then what am I missing out by believing in this you know and so for me a lot of this right now is like the familiarity with these things getting to know them having a sense of around this um you know our biases in a lot of ways protect us from things that we might not feel like we’re ready for or know how to do and so it might not be about jumping to you know here’s how you totally eradicate all the biases that you’ve had about yourself like that might not be the answer and so I think one of the maybe the first step is just

(1:21:13) know what they are first and then know what they serve and what they block for you in your life and see how that feels as a start yeah [Music] so we have some magic mop questions um the first one is I would love to know her daily rituals or with routine oh oh I like this um so I’m displaced right now um and not in my home with um all that’s going on but my normal routine is that um my husband and I wake up we Pao Santo the apartment I’m all about scent and sound piano music goes on in the morning um I make us our coffees and

(1:21:58) Connor does some breath work um we get into meditation and then we sit in our two comfy chairs and we have coffee together and we do that for probably generally about 30 minutes every morning um and that’s our time to just like like just connect about whatever is going on whether it’s usually it’s not work related stuff usually it’s just like how we’re doing how we’re feeling what’s been coming up for us and so we really do carve out that time in the morning to um connect and spend time together

(1:22:30) without devices it’s uninterrupted and you know was it was the question just the morning routine uh yeah or or like a ritual yeah but yeah and how the same sort of like type of ritual for evening too um is like winding down tea um scent get the diffuser going um and yeah just sort of this coming down together as well but um I generally try to get some type of movement in during my day and um but that doesn’t that doesn’t happen in the mornings usually um that’s usually somewhere else throughout the throughout

(1:23:06) the day so yeah but I do I love our mornings our little mindful mornings together yeah and just for our listeners your husband is Connor Beaton right he does uh coaching with men yeah he does a lot of Shadow work with men wow yeah we’d love to have him on oh he’d love to oh great yeah well I I’m speaking boundaries Vienna how’s Tuesday Tuesday listen we’re on self quarantine so we can do podcast Galore yeah perfect all right so another magic mob question is when’s a good time for a new

(1:23:46) couple to start going to coup’s therapy you know what I can say is that most couples like our research the the research shows that couples come to couple therapy about four years too late so if we take that research first and then sort of flip it it’s that you know this I think a lot of times the story is that something terrible has to be going on in your relationship for you to come to couple therapy right so we’ve talked a lot today about the narratives of you know what it looks like to fall in love

(1:24:15) what it means to go to a couple therapy the reality of it is is so many of the people who come to therapy with me are in a place where they’re just wanting to deepen and strengthen their relationship their understanding of themselves and their Partners um sometimes they’re doing preventative work which it might mean that they’re just getting ahead of the game and you know that’s a beautiful thing to do if you are you know fortunate enough to to do it I know that it can be a luxury for for many but I

(1:24:44) don’t think you know I don’t think it’s too soon really ever obviously have an established relationship like it’s not the first you know few weeks of dating but I think it’s that when you are in a place where both of you want to deepen and strengthen you will have a third party In the Mix who is going to just see your Dynamic differently than you see your Dynamic that’s just the reality of it and you might think that you know so much about yourself and so much about your partner but the way in which

(1:25:15) you come together and the way that you’re like Fabrics mix and mingle with one another another person who’s really skilled and trained in that space is going to be able to highlight a lot of things just as an observer and so I don’t really think that there’s like a too soon type of thing obviously have your relationship be established en enjoy yourselves see some of the patterns that come up um but I would not say that there’s like a too early thing especially if you’re going into it just

(1:25:44) wanting to learn more about yourself how beautiful yeah do you recommend anything that couples can do in you know in their own homes on their own time type of thing as well that have been helpful in in your uh with your clients yeah yeah I mean I think that there’s a lot of free resources out there like I so I have a free relationship Journal that couples can do together it’s also there’s also one for people who are not partnered right now um so I can send that to you guys um and it’s like it’s a really

(1:26:17) straightforward simple journaling process of going through some of this work um Connor and I my husband and I also have course called get the love you want um and we can send you guys also a discount for all your listeners um and it’s a six week course um it’s really honestly a a great course I was um unsure about how a course is I see like 35 40 clients a week I love being in person with people but I love this course and I’m really proud of it and it’s a deep dive into self and relational awareness understanding our

(1:26:49) family systems and then we dive into communication conflict um boundaries and then sex and intimacy is it similar to um Pace yeah sorry yeah is it similar to gutman’s eight dates or is it more similar to um Harville Hendrick because that is it’s a similar title yeah it’s um it’s not I mean there’s a we pull a little bit from different places but most of it is from like what we’ve seen in our work of the things that really go into navigating healthy relationships and so you know we certainly use some stuff from that gets

(1:27:35) regurgitated and obviously you know some of the boundary work we pull from Dr Alexander Solomon who’s a wonderful friend and colleague of mine some of the language around rigid porous and healthy boundaries um but yeah it’s very much a reflection and extension of you know the work that we do with couples and I think when you’re doing relational work in I believe it’s really important to work with people who work with couples because I think that you can have ideas about relationships that are totally

(1:28:09) spoton but you know when you have couples in front of you where you see the true disconnect and the challenges and what what like the struggles and why certain things are not just easy as following one two three four five like that is what this course is created and built on and so you know that’s something that that can be done um I’m trying to think like yeah like the the eight dates you know there’s things like buying a book or um I think the goans also have these like cards that like the questions the love mapping

(1:28:41) questions um I’m trying to like I’ll have to think I’ll send you guys more stuff if there’s anything that comes that’s I’d love to take your course your course oh it’s so so so good sounds amazing and I was going to ask you um if you’re taking on couples as clients still as well because I my husband and I also boundaries speaking for him but um would love to do that oh you’re so sweet um so I’m I’m full with a bit of a weight list at the moment um but I have a I have a practice in New York City um

(1:29:17) you know right now we’ve moved everything to digital at the moment just for the time being um but you know please please reach out you can find me at New York couples mft um and you know I’m try trying to bring on more support in the practice we have a number of therapists there but we’re we’re still in the process of expanding so um thank you you can take your course without being your totally okay yeah yeah yeah absolutely amazing I was going to also ask you this is part of the magic mob question is it

(1:29:52) important to go to a different therapist for couples counseling than you do for personal talk therapy usually yes um you know I think many of us like to split it up just because of the biases that can happen there um there are certainly times where it can make sense right so a lot of times there it is Case by case and we’re having to navigate you know we all have different stories and safy security like sometimes the right decision is to work with the parts of the the couple but generally speaking Yeah it’s really great to have a

(1:30:31) different space um for the individual and the the couples so um generally yes sometimes no I could see though I could be like if I’m going to your therapist he’s gonna be on your side thing all right Vienna there is a few short questions we like to ask everyone who comes on the show so first off if you could hug your younger right now what would you say she’d probably be about five or six years old and I would say you can take up space why did you feel like you couldn’t um because the system around me

(1:31:16) was shaking so much and they felt like they were crashing and burning so much and so my response response was just like handle everything that you need on your own and um take care of it yourself yeah were you an only child did you say yeah oh yeah that’s hard yeah that’s a lot if you could have the whole world read one book which would it be oh my Lord oh my gosh uh do people have an answer for that H sometimes it’s like right away or it’s what you’re doing oh my goodness um mine is usually um getting the love you want

(1:32:01) that’s usually my answer I love getting the love you want I do I love I love getting the love you want um maybe daring greatly you know like I think br’s work is so easy to receive and but gosh oh man there’s so many but okay that’s my answer we that was um we had a guest Michael Brody weight that was his answer so that’s the only one who said that so far that’s but bne she’s such an inspiration great stuff okay um I’m gonna add in a question on our Staples we’ll see if it sticks this will be the

(1:32:43) you’ll be the first time we’re asking this question all right so it’s a little dark maybe but I think it could actually have hold a lot of bright lightness so um if you could have anything written on your Tombstone what would you have it say or like the theme of your eulogy it can be yeah if you don’t want to be buried in the ground I I want to be buried in the ground but in a in a tree pod but if the tree pod could have maybe like she lived awake something like that I love that she loved awake all right whis I like it too I

(1:33:32) think we’re gonna I feel like we need to add that one I like that question if you could whisper one phrase to everyone on the planet what would it [Music] be you have the capacity to [Music] heal that’s good thank you thank you guys um you you mentioned it um I think already but uh where can people find you if they want to get a hold of you yeah sure so um on Instagram where I’m um my website is New York couples counseling.

(1:34:17) com and on that site is where all of my events and panels and Retreats and all the things obviously right now most of that that is cancelled but you know if we’re hanging in this together and you want to check in in few months that’s where that’s where all of that will be so those are the those are the main two places where you can find everything okay I hate to ask you this but will you tell us one more time just because you broke up in the beginning of it and I want to make sure we get that especially clearly um and this won’t air

(1:34:46) J Jay do you know where this will Air still air in the summer so hopefully all your events will be going on let’s pretend it’s all going on cool cool awesome awesome awesome so just tell us where you people can find you online yeah so you can find me on Instagram at mindful mft um and then my website is New York couples counseling.

(1:35:09) com and you can find all of my events panels and workshops and Retreats there um so both of those platforms have all the information that you would need yay I’m excited I’m definitely gonna look into signing up for your couple’s um me too Workshop because awesome awesome awesome so thank you so much for really a you’re asking us to trust that doing the work will lead to something so much better and I think that a lot of people might not trust that um so thank you for for speaking that out into the Universe I

(1:35:44) think it that it will um lead us to doing it and finding out that it is worthwhile so thank you for giving us the tools to get there and for being such a light this is uh one of the best conversations I’ve ever been a part of I know it’s so hard to find um a therapist that you know you really really connect with but uh you are the you’re what I think you’re like a dream therapist so thank you so much thank you that means so much thanks yeah you’re definitely in your calling so thank you for spending

(1:36:14) time with us thank you for having me thanks GNA all right we will hit you up with all of the yeah I’ll send all that stuff over to you guys awesome yeah and we’ll send you once this is uh closer to air date we’ll send you the promos we make from it we’ll send you obviously all the links for that good stuff perfect yeah perfect thanks so much guys stay safe and well bye okay um oh I really meant that it was like one of the best conversations I’ve ever been in yeah me too speaking of uh of conversations uh that my magic is about

(1:36:55) conversating okay go on it’s from it’s from her her Instagram actually um and it’s it’s funny because I don’t I don’t think of myself as a gossiper but the day I saw this post I was in a gossiping conversation and had I not been I probably would have just breeed right past this but she had a Instagram post that said if you find yourself gossiping ask yourself what am I gaining from this am I feeling badly about something within myself how does this gossip make my pain any less what’s it helping me

(1:37:36) avoid so she says um in the caption stay with it stay with those answers we can all find ourselves in this space hanging out with that shadow energy the parts of ourselves that we feel insecure about want to hide the parts we want to ignore and disown gossip serves something maybe it helps us avoid something we are insecure about maybe it helps us feel above another maybe it puts Our Lives into perspective by putting someone else’s life down so pay attention to it notice yourself or others in that space

(1:38:06) and how you respond notice what you feel after you gossip or partake in someone else gossiping where do you feel it in your body and process that be with it and see what comes up see what you can face instead of avoid right now it’s just about bringing our attention to it um so I noticed for me it’s never like oh did you hear about or like oh guess what happened it’s never that type of Gossip it’s it’s always like um it’s almost disguised as an as a as a growth enlightening conversation you

(1:38:41) know like it’s always like um somehow Works its way in as that so um I’m working at still applying that even when because when it’s in that contacts you don’t always feel the um like when when I’m in a car with girls on the way to work and we’re actually gossiping and talk like talking down about someone that doesn’t feel good that feels low energy that feels low vibration the gossip I I catch myself in it doesn’t feel like that it it feels like it’s disguised as um as um as high

(1:39:15) energy even though it’s not so um my work right now is to um pay closer attention I like that yeah uh can you check your mic there’s something going on it’s like very fuzzy check the the zoom and see what it says it has you as that’s right I think it’s my computer fan or yours or something mine’s not on but um I hear something now in the background but there’s also like when you’re maybe it’s because it’s capturing part of the sound of the fuzz I didn’t notice it the whole episode until now um I don’t

(1:40:00) know it’s like it’s definitely not how you started the episode though well at least we’re at the end yeah but you can turn your fan off if you want you just um hit command I don’t hear my fan well I hear something in the background now it’s going okay well we’ve got like four minutes left just your magic trick so we’ll I’ll we’ll figure it out before we do the next episode okay uh okay yeah it’s really good I um it’s some I mean to ask yourself why you’re gossiping because we just fall

(1:40:31) into that sometimes we fall into talking about someone else or some some that’s out external you know it’s an external thing that doesn’t really have anything to do with us and we decide to put our judgments on it or whatever and I think asking those questions is really powerful because yes I notice if I’m doing that it’s probably because I’m avoiding some looking at something in myself and if I’m holding judgment on someone else or gossiping about someone else it’s usually because there’s well

(1:40:57) always because there’s something in myself that that is triggering that is true about me and I don’t want to look at it and I think that’s an important concept is that if you can recognize something yucky in someone else is because it also lives in you um so thank you for that my magic is some things to ask yourself when you’re upset so it kind of goes in line with what you’re talking about there Jade but all Shadow work yeah this whole episode is all the work but it’s so important and it is so worthwhile

(1:41:29) because it will like we were talking about with Vienna allow you to live a more full and vibrant life in my opinion or at least the work I’ve done so far is just like exponentially made my life better so um so the things to ask yourself when you’re upset or if you feel any of that angry feeling you feel that heat in your belly you know that that that concaving of your chest where you just just feel like you’ve got this anger or this part of you that is not not the way that is comfortable or how you want it to be so

(1:42:02) ask yourself what does this remind you of when you feel those feelings um what is the origin story so for you know for example what was the first time I experienced something like this even if the content was different and ask yourself if my feeling could speak what would it say um where do I feel it in my body and answer this the threat or fear that I’m experiencing is and what I need right now to support myself is so it might seem funny to ask your feelings and experiences questions like this but this is a route we can

(1:42:44) take to getting more intimate with ourselves and when we’re able to do this we move ourselves towards self- soothing and self-healing like we were talking about Vienna you know figuring out how to validate this stuff for ourselves instead of asking that of our partners and our loved ones which is an unfair request it truly is um so I’d invite you to take on the responsibility of creating space for yourself to do this work because in doing it we’re raising the vibration on this planet together y’all and I know you are all show up

(1:43:15) people that’s why you’re listening to this podcast right now so I’m going to thank you in advance for taking that time and energy to do this work work yes thank you guys so much and not just for that uh but for just always tuning in even when um the topic might seem heavy or hard and just being on this journey with us if this episode H some magic for you please share it with your friends and family this would mean so much to us and also don’t forget to join us on our Instagram page at theic hour and let us know what your

(1:43:49) favorite episodes have been so far we appreciate all of your feedback and want to know what’s lighting you up yes and we release a new episode every Monday so you can catch us again next week or go listen to some of our past episodes in our podcast library now by the way we mentioned uh the uh kink and sexual River Waring yeah River roaring was who we were talking about when we talked about sexual fetish healing and and uh kink healing which I think is a really great episode so River roaring she was just um I think episode number 60 or 61

(1:44:23) something like that somewhere in the early 60 so go back and listen to that and enjoy let us know how how you like it until then you guys light light