(00:00) i don’t think he wears the whiskey honey after this and i don’t drink so you know it was a really weird convo to overhear the babies earlier yeah saul said something and jaya goes so who cares oh and i know and sell goes god oh good come back solid solid and adam you can definitely let me let me let me just let me see okay i’m gonna drop off the callers to check this audio okay yeah yeah we’ll be here adam [Laughter] we are [ __ ] losing it man god damn i’m glad i’m ecam recording yeah laugh too much i know no

(00:53) i’m pretty sure that the topics we’re getting into are not laughable so i hope we get anything it’s going to be better than me like trying to open applications for 90 minutes i had a feeling when you text me and said is this a video call i was like oh crap it’ll be wrong he read it it’ll be refreshing to talk about depression after what we did we just went through it oh man okay you’re taking this very well i might might yeah i’ve it’s um it’s been a rollercoaster you know i’ve had to work through my own i’ve

(01:36) been through a lot of different emotions just in the last hour we were testing you we wanted to see how you’re the real deal or not adam what did you we’re good to go [Applause] adam you’re just you’re just saying that because you just want us to [ __ ] be done with this huh so it actually sounds fine it does it sounds fine um so yeah thank you sorry about the uh confusion um yeah enjoy yeah i i hope you guys have a good conversation thank you thank you man thank you okay see you later adam see you later bye

(02:14) okay so um jamie we’re just gonna do the introduction yeah so when she says your name basically we’re gonna fully introduce you and that last thing i’ll say is your name you’ll you’ll know i’ll build up to it yeah so say hi to us when she does that but up until then you’re not really here okay no i understand okay let me make sure i’m all recording jade you’re all good and are you now recording as well um jamie or did you i just didn’t know if you stopped for that i am recording cool

(02:50) okay i’m good to go on ecamm i’m good to go on audacity on my end okay what’s up boys and babes welcome to the magic hour i’m mercedes terrell and with me my majestic partner and shine jade bryce hey jade hey you guys today we’re having on jamie torkowski what i love about jamie’s message is that it reminds us that we need each other he reminds us to be kind and that people are hurting we’re going to discuss the importance of community and getting rid of the taboo that surrounds discussing some of life’s most

(03:26) painful topics this may be a conversation most people tend to run from but we invite you to listen in and allow yourself to feel jamie’s message we promise it’ll be one of hope so without further ado let me introduce the founder of the non-profit organization to write love on her arms and the new york times best-selling author of if you feel too much he has been interviewed by nbc nightly news cbs sunday morning and rolling stones magazine a surfer an extremely devoted uncle and brother a man that is a dreamer and a

(04:02) doer he sacrificed it all to dedicate his life to delivering a message of hope to those struggling with their own darkness there are countless people still alive today because of this man’s light jamie torkowski [Music] thank you for having me on thanks for being here it’s been a little bit of a whirlwind uh getting this all worked out and making it happen tonight so thank you for sticking with us you’re amazing yeah we already love you yeah i feel like we’re friends now we’ve been through stuff

(04:34) um so jamie you’ve written some of my favorite quotes and so i’ll probably end up starting and ending the interview uh with one of those but what’s crazy is that one of my favorite quotes i turned into a magnet uh maybe gosh like seven or eight years ago and i didn’t know it said unknown on the tumbler or whatever it is that i found it so i turn it into a magnet have it on my fridge and had no idea it was you until i was actually researching you for this uh podcast interview so um but it’s the the quote uh you’ll need

(05:11) coffee shops and sunsets and road trips airplanes and passports and new songs and old songs but people more than anything else you will need other people and you will need to be that other person to someone else a living breathing screaming invitation to believe better things and this was just so romantic to me so thank you for giving me that and for putting that out into the world it really is one of my favorite quotes still to this day so that’s really cool i i love that story and you’re welcome jamie

(05:42) maybe we’ll kick it off by you can explain to us what the goals of to write love on her arms is yeah so you know the best the best thing i ever get to hear is i get to meet people who tell me they’re still alive because of the work that we do as an organization so really the goal is for people who are struggling specifically with depression addiction self-injury thoughts of suicide that anyone dealing with those things would know that it’s okay to talk about them that it’s okay to be honest and open and more than anything that it’s

(06:18) okay to ask for help so we work not only to encourage people but also to connect people to resources and also to give financially so that people who need help but can’t afford it are able to get the help that they need and deserve very needed um so jamie you said another quote i’ll read we have a lot of control over how we talk to each other how we treat each other how we make time for each other love is a lot of things but at the center it is a choice a choice to love people a choice to be kind and to live

(06:53) with grace why do you think we’ve gotten so far away from this as a country and really as the world right now oh it’s such a hard one i mean especially you know in 2018 a few days a few days after an election um you know it’s that’s a it’s such a challenging one in terms of what does it mean to love people and if i love if i do my best to love this group of people will it offend this other group of people you know so we all i think we all get to try to wrestle through uh what does this mean and i guess in light

(07:35) of the work that we do as an organization and the work that i get to be a part of it’s kind of like what does it mean to love someone who is struggling with something i’ve never experienced what does it mean to love someone when i don’t i don’t understand it and i’m not sure how to help but i want to be there so it’s it’s a fascinating one it’s um we all love that word love you know and we love it especially when it’s easy or when it’s certain and i think when it comes to what you talked about which is

(08:10) kind of this moment in america or even specifically you know mental health uh it’s it’s i think can be a lot more challenging but we want to invite people to keep showing up and to keep doing our best to care for the folks around us especially those who are struggling yeah i know we both love bob goff um and he says love is a it’s a sign language like because you know there’s a five love languages and he always said it’s a sign language it’s a do thing and i love that um a lot of your quotes are about needing

(08:46) people that and a lot about a lot of your book is about meeting people um and you say that you get quite quiet and angry and bitter when you’re left to yourself um i i know that there’s been times for me when i felt alone in my darkness and i’ll scroll through my contacts for someone to reach out to and i have over a thousand contacts in my phone and i just can’t pull myself to contact a single one and these are people that i know love me people that i know would be there for me people that would hate to see me go

(09:17) but there’s something about that dark place that keeps you from reaching out and it may be that you don’t want to be that draining friend or that you may think that they’re not going to understand i’m not sure but if any of my friends told me that they were feeling how i was feeling in those moments all i would want to do is be there for them and i know we’re not meant to be an island so how do you break out of this in the midst of any pain or darkness that comes up i think it’s really hard i think i

(09:46) relate to everything you just said you know i’m someone who struggles with depression and and part of that and i know it’s not unique to only you or me but part of i think depression anxiety uh so many of these issues is that it does cause us to isolate it causes us to withdraw and to want to be alone and you know i think i think we have to remember that that we do need people you know that was kind of how you introduce the question but to to remember that we are designed for connection and that we’re made to be

(10:23) known and to be loved and so i think to reach out to people who care about us and also to know there’s a time when you know say for me i need more help than my friends can provide and so i’m thankful to have a relationship with a licensed mental health counselor you know so i can have conversations with this woman for an hour every single week and that i know i put that at the top of the list in terms of the connection that i need when i’m in that dark place so would you say that’s what you do that makes you

(10:57) feel less alone or what are your tools for feeling less alone yeah i like that you said tools because i think it is a number of things i i would put counseling at the top of the list in terms of priority but i need friends and i need family and i need to get enough sleep and to exercise and you know i think self-care is sort of like this buffet where we all get to pick out different things that we like and uh i think the important thing is just that we figure out what are those what are those things that make us feel

(11:30) alive that make us feel recharged that make us remind us who we are and and help us feel healthy so yeah for me i think it’s it’s throwing every good thing you know counseling for me it’s medication uh relationships and then i think in the in only in the last few years did i realize that that self-care piece was vital as well that as an adult you don’t have to outgrow your hobbies and your quirks and the things that make you smile like that that can actually be part of how you deal with the hard things in your life yeah part

(12:05) of adulting is playtime i think we forget that as adults so often and that’s what i know for me it’s like what keeps my brain chemicals most balanced is finding ways to make time for playtime and then going out and doing it you know and sometimes especially when you’re in a bad mood or you’re just feeling eggy that day or whatever it is you end up not being motivated to get out and do the thing that makes you feel the most alive yeah so i guess that would be the same thing you would say to those that feel alone

(12:40) to find ways you find whatever your personal your own tools are whoever you are yeah i think honestly and i i know i touched on it out of my own experience but um i would put that professional help piece at again at the top of the list and i think a couple simple examples it’s like when you know if you break a bone you go to the hospital like uh and none of us think twice about that you go to a place where they know how to fix broken bones when when your car is giving you trouble you want to get it to a mechanic because

(13:16) they know how to fix car trouble and so i think the work that i get to be a part of we’re kind of dreaming about this world where people would approach mental health and addiction the same way where we would say hey there are there are people and places that exist to meet these needs and to have these unique challenging conversations and how do we how do we get you the the best possible help and then and then you know after that you add in relationships and and play time and all the other good things but i think i’ve

(13:50) become so thankful for professional help specifically i agree i think uh we don’t of course there’s a taboo around this subject but we also just don’t look at mental health professionals as the professionals that they are you know we don’t consider a psychologist or a psychiatrist a uh oh you couldn’t become a real doctor it’s like i can’t imagine anything being more real you know like that’s yeah but your your brain almost has to come before your body in a lot of senses so yeah it’s always unfortunate to me when

(14:27) people are so worried about having some label that um or you know going to therapy they’re afraid of the word therapy because of whatever context it’s coming from in their past life so yeah i think that’s really important to just bring up it’s okay like we’re we all need that help we’re none of us are born professionals at this and i think too that that stigma that you mentioned is is real and it’s present but it really can begin to go away when we talk openly and honestly kind of the stuff

(15:01) that the three of us are talking about right now the hope is that it makes it easier and it’s almost contagious or we give people permission to realize wow they’re talking about this maybe i can talk about it as well because i that stigma can be such a barrier for so many people but i think when you do decide to be vulnerable and you’re met with some with a response that actually feels good yeah then it reminds you wow i can i can talk about this and maybe you’re you’re met with a response where someone

(15:32) else feels the same way where someone else can relate when you take when you talk about anything that you have shame around you take the power away from it yeah because the shame says we have to keep it a secret yeah so i agree so in your book you write about the idea that dads fathers have a lot to do with many of the things that we’ve already mentioned thus far and i know that’s something that jade and i have really had to work through you know in our own lives so maybe you can go into how dads play a role in all of this

(16:15) oh yeah i mean i i wouldn’t say it’s an expert opinion i i think i think just the little bit i know and the little bit that i’ve experienced just as a human being and a son uh is that we are so affected by our relationship or our relationships with our parents and maybe as you said for for guys for men that that father relationship is is really key and and certainly you know i i imagine it’s also true that our parents are still recovering and trying to make sense of their relationship for sure with their parents

(16:49) and so many of these things just uh not get passed down but but i think so many people at any age are still navigating the pain the baggage the good and bad of that relationship with their parent yeah we have to see our parents as hurt children also yeah definitely what um what’s something that you needed to hear as a child you know i i grew up really loved like i had a i had a really good relationship with my parents with my sisters uh it’s funny i feel like a lot of the darkness kind of found me more in in the

(17:35) last decade um but i think i i was always sensitive and and i was prone to worry and and so i think just needing to hear that that i was safe that i was special that i was seen you know that i was good enough and i think i i really did get to hear and experience a lot of that thankfully and i know not everyone does but um yeah i think i think looking back i i feel like i had my parents attention in a healthy way and i felt cared for i don’t know i’m thankful for the what i got to experience as a kid yeah that’s um

(18:23) going back to the father thing i know you say in your book that father’s day means something different to everyone and you know same for valentine’s day you know like um holidays have so many i think a couple different things that i read about like holidays are the days that people drink there’s the most drinking and driving accidents and um then i also read this is um kind of interesting that boys specifically who wet the bed until their teen years about like it was like over 90 of them have either um no father present or like

(19:04) some sort of traumatic experience with their father and i thought that was really interesting um but and i know for me uh a lot of my depression as a kid it didn’t it definitely stemmed from my from my parents but there were times when i always when i would hit that darkness i would be like well if he had been around he could have fixed this or he could have um i would have just had someone here to rescue me from this abuse or you know so um i definitely i definitely see how parents play a role there um and it’s interesting how

(19:49) because we do have holidays at center around family so much throughout the year it’s almost like it’s hard for people to forget that yeah i get reminded over and over again yeah yeah you you know you you mentioned it but uh those holidays are fascinating because there are days that so many people get together and celebrate but it has a way of exposing or pointing out when that thing is missing like you know and you brought up a couple examples but you know mother’s day is a day where so many people maybe most people

(20:23) kind of go through the motions of celebrating their mom and posting a photo and yet for someone who lost their mom never knew their mom had a broken relationship it it’s obviously a different kind of day you can’t become a mom yeah um so i think one thing that i think has felt important to us as an organization is just trying to remember those people who feel left out and knowing that something as beautiful as a mother being a mother having a mother can also be really difficult or can be really broken or just simply not an easy day for a lot

(21:00) of people and just trying to be honest about that and trying to care for folks in a lot of different situations or with a lot of different experiences yeah i know too like light comes from all of this still and you know some of my most important relationships have come because of us needing each other because of the darkness that we were in this podcast and um my desire that i’ve always had to be a light comes from me growing up in darkness my um passion for invisible children which is how i met tom and how i met how i know

(21:40) who you are because i saw you speak at i think it was ucla fourth estate yeah yeah fourth estate um my passion there that took me to uganda and to took me to fourth estate where i saw you and to the summit where i saw uh met tom um comes from being a hurt child myself and being an invisible child myself so that made me have a passion for them uh and i know one of my favorite stories and examples is maya angelou you know she was abused by a man sexually abused by a man really horribly and when she told her mom she finally told her mom and the next

(22:18) day that man was killed he was uh beaten kicked over and over and he was killed and she as a child thought that she brought that on that she caused that that it was her voice her speaking out so she didn’t speak for for six years not a word she didn’t speak she went mute and to think that her words are so powerful and her poetry like her poetry was birthed from that darkness and she’s changed so many hearts you know um that’s my favorite story about light coming from the darkness and you you know i’m sure

(22:53) you all know oprah’s story you know like so many powerful stories similar can you tell us a story one of your favorite stories from your organization’s experiences i know you made a documentary about one of tom’s students um her father had ptsd um so i know you’ve got a ton of stories you’ve probably um it’s you probably experienced a lot with your organization seeing a lot of pain but can you tell us one of your favorite stories where light was born from it yeah that’s a good that’s a good question um

(23:30) you know i have a i have a new friend a recent friend from the last year and he is an undocumented immigrant uh who swam across the rio grande as a 12 year old was caught basically ended up in a detention center his parents were planning his funeral when they got a call that their son was alive this radical story straight out of a movie you know he ends up in america as a 12 year old and doesn’t speak english he has to learn the language and has to find his way in this new country and is now has become one of my favorite people and

(24:15) a new friend and is just um such a source of joy and and is telling his story and obviously has a heart for other people with similar stories whether it’s whether it’s dreamers whether it’s immigrants refugees and for me he you know he has had to survive so much and still does you know still has to navigate a lot of ugliness and ignorance and in the midst of that has struggled with depression and you know has had to navigate his own mental health and he has to me just become this incredible person uh who is still at risk of being deported

(25:01) um but it is fighting for not only his family not only his friends but just uh is fighting for so many you know thousands of people who are walking similar roads you know at times literally like people making their way to this country and people who are fleeing poverty and violence and so that’s one that’s you know i i hear so many stories that are i was close to suicide and i encountered your organization whether it was through the website or social media and i ended up getting help and i ended up staying alive

(25:38) you know so i get to hear those stories consistently and and that i mean i think that’s the best thing i get to hear but my friend gustavo um you know he has every reason to be cynical to be bitter to be jaded to feel like life has let him down like this country has let him down and yet he still wakes up and has a smile on his face and wants to be alive and uh i think is really an inspiration to me so hopefully that’s that’s an example yeah we do love that do you have any daily habits or um go-to almost tricks i guess

(26:23) that you use to help magic trick yeah to make people feel seen when you have interactions with them just on a daily basis oh i think i don’t know about tricks but um do you mean like friends or people that i meet i mean i guess it could be anything like i i just was thinking while we we’ve been discussing this that um something could be going through this darkness at any moment right yeah so like there’s something we’ve talked about in the past where even just the littlest thing like opening the door

(26:54) first for somebody or saying hi to a passerby you know or someone in the elevator with you i mean it can be as simple as that and you never know what the last straw is for someone either sure yeah yeah i mean i think all of those those things matter i think a lot of times we forget the value especially with friends or people that we’re close to of really asking that question of how someone is doing yeah especially when we have a hunch that they’re not doing great and so what does it look like to really

(27:24) give that question the time and space that it deserves uh and not be afraid of the answer yeah and and to keep showing up and and to keep expressing that concern and and then as you guys pointed out you never know even if it’s with a stranger what could change someone’s day i i met a a young lady years ago who lost her brother to suicide and he jumped off one of the bridges in new york city and i remember she said to me that she wondered if anyone smiled at him as he walked his final steps to this bridge

(28:01) and basically asking the question i wonder if someone had smiled at him right if it could have changed his day and he might still be here yeah and so she was basically presenting the possibility that something as small as a smile could have saved her brother and and that has always stayed with me yeah it reminds me of how uh jade you’ve talked about how tom asks you often how’s your heart you know yeah he never says hey jade what’s up you’re like how are you he always or you know a lot of people want to know

(28:36) what’s going on like what you’re actually doing his answer is always how is your heart his question yeah yeah yeah i think it’s a beautiful way to cut straight to the core sure you know and i think that’s an important point too is just to when we are being inquisitive with our friends or even with strangers ask something a little bit deeper than what’s the usual you know how are you doing what’s up yeah because if you want something more then i’m fine i’m okay i’m doing good then

(29:07) you’re gonna have to ask something a little a little yeah jade brought up bob goff and bob loves to ask people what they want even if he’s meeting them for the first time and to me it’s it’s so much cooler than what do you do you know because i and i think also part of what he’s maybe implying is is could i help you get there yeah where are you trying to get where are you trying to go what do you want out of this life or or even what do you want out of this month or this year and uh i think it’s easy to assume that he’s

(29:40) asking because then it gives him the opportunity to to care and to participate i like the question too what are you grateful for or what are you grateful for today you know and it is also a conversation starter because whatever they’re going to say are the perfect things for you to talk about because they’re what they love talking about the most i’m sure yeah yeah what are your dating tips for those 101 uh questions jamie uh is it like how is your heart right now and what are you aching for oh uh i’m okay it’s been it’s been a hard

(30:15) stretch honestly it’s been yeah just um it’s it’s been it’s been a hard few weeks um yeah just just i’m really aware of my own depression my own questions just kind of navigating i just moved to los angeles a few months ago and trying to figure out if that’s the right decision and kind of just what it usually is yeah what can be summed up as where do i belong you know i’m also single and 38 and growing up i wouldn’t have imagined that i’d be single at 38 and just kind of the longing and the

(30:57) the struggle of trying to be okay in the midst of being super aware that i wish that was different so and yeah and that relates to what i want and you know what i hope can happen in the future but at the same time there’s a lot to be thankful for i’m i’m grateful for my parents i’m grateful for my sisters my nephews my best friends i’m healthy i’m alive so i you know i feel the hard stuff but i think it’s important to remember the the good stuff as well i like that well i since you brought up

(31:39) the fact that you’re single i know um i guess the question is are you wanting to be in a relation i guess yes you want to be in a relationship but is it the issue there that’s why you have so many yeah you have this like deepness about you you have this uh you know this company that keeps you in maybe some dark natured uh thoughts and and your life is lending itself to these people that need your help but that’s there’s a lot of darkness around that there’s a lot of like heaviness around that so is that

(32:18) any kind of effect on on your dating life no i don’t think so i i think the i think the short version is i well i’ve i’ve been in some relationships that didn’t work out and i think a lot of people at any age can relate to that so i’ve you know i’ve participated in things that that didn’t last um and part of even wanting to be in california was just to leave the sleepy beach town in florida that i grew up in uh because i i wanted to be in a place where i felt like i had a better chance

(32:58) to meet someone and then people make the obvious joke like yeah you want stability and commitment so you went to los angeles well there’s 11 million people if you can’t find someone in that city then you might be doing something wrong i mean both both are true i think but um yeah and then i think a mix of being picky and and i’ve i’ve also you know there’s times where i i’ve spent a lot of time uh in things that weren’t reciprocated you know so just i notice someone or pursue someone and

(33:32) it’s not mutual and so i think kind of a mix of those things and then i guess ultimately we’re all trying to find that one person and that one relationship and and so i still have hope jamie you from you’re frozen jamie if you can hear us shoot what do you want to do i’m sure i’ll come back uh crap i know let me just hang up and call him again or wait a couple minutes how did he did he call in before you called him i called him okay then yeah you probably have to okay

(34:35) don’t you’re not gonna