(00:00) just emailed you i was like can you send me oh i just sent you an email so also disregard that because you can just click on the link and it’ll take you right to your country so you don’t have to go long distance i guess yeah yeah yeah excellent yeah you’re in okay good i’m in um yeah i didn’t know you’re a calling from vancouver i don’t know why i totally heard that on the last show i listened to you on but i didn’t even think about that no worries it all worked out okay awesome

(00:31) you guys are aware i’m in austin and she’s in california i’m in orange county yeah oh oc the oc yeah um nice to meet you girls by the way yeah you too thank you so much for your instagram post they’re very informative welcome that’s a general idea yeah definitely yes um so i was to read your bio and then we’ll just kick off the questions sure okay oh real quick are you so you’re calling from computer or phone i’m calling from all online landline okay i’m just trying to see i’ve never had someone

(01:13) call in from a landline so normally we have you select a certain mic on the computer and whatnot but oh i see i see yeah no landline there are no screw-ups ever you never miss a connection anything like that okay well we’ll be battling with our own internet so hopefully hopefully our side will come through okay all right cool all right so jd she’s gonna read your intro and then we’ll just get into it okay oh cringe okay today’s guest is a public figure with over 145 000 followers on instagram all

(01:50) based off her passion to help others survive narcissistic abuse she specializes in narcissistic abuse recovery and her mission is to spread awareness on narcissism and narcissistic abuse she is an expert speaker and advocate for victims of domestic violence and narcissistic abuse with both lived experience and many years of in-depth self-study on narcissism the dsmv cluster b personality disorder trauma adverse childhood experiences childhood emotional neglect childhood trauma such as children who witness abuse

(02:21) generational trauma father issues and how these are often interrelated to narcissists narcissism please welcome today’s guest narcissistic survivor yay thanks for being hi yes thank you thank you for having me on yes and so this will be the first episode that we do really all audio and no video and so just to explain to our listeners obviously um we are keeping your identity private for your own um comfort and security yeah definitely and i can go into that a bit too sure yeah yeah why don’t we let me i’m going to come back to that

(03:01) because i want to first just get everybody on board with what narcissism is so maybe you could give us a definition for what narcissism is and what causes it just to kick us into this um that’s not a simple question so there’s a difference between a lot of people are throwing around the word you know narcissism or he’s a narcissist or whatever so there’s a difference between someone with high levels of narcissism so you know they’re self-absorbed they’re you know really into themselves

(03:33) you could call it like selfie culture even but that doesn’t just because somebody is you know a little bit i don’t know we used to call it conceited or into themselves or really into health and fitness or whatever or or even even selfish in a lot of ways that does not necessarily mean that they have narcissistic personality disorder um narcissistic personality disorder as as you mentioned um i mentioned that in my intro actually um the definition is is very different and it is an actual personality disorder

(04:12) where for a variety of reasons this person lacks the usual amount of empathy that a normal human being has so they’re very cold calculating manipulative they’re out to win at all costs even though they don’t seem like that at first even though they don’t seem like that at first um and that’s part of their that’s part of their their manipulation tactic is the love bombing and all that which we’ll get into probably later but um so that’s really really the big difference you can be really

(04:45) you know you can be a dick and hella selfish but that does not mean that you’re necessarily an actual text textbook narcissist hmm okay yeah yeah yeah that makes sense i mean the way that i understand it and correct me if i’m wrong is that there is a scale let’s call it of you know from someone who’s maybe um completely i don’t know if i won’t even call it like humble or to a place where they’re only worried about serving others and maybe even don’t take compliments well and don’t

(05:18) you know want to be the center of attention ever and maybe it’s even to a hindering um degree that’s not healthy for them either and then there is something in the middle where there’s a maybe um some sort of healthy narcissism where you’re able to you know have self-confidence i think they say that most celebrities have a higher narcissistic tendency and then the other degree to the other extreme would be where you’re you know all the way on the other side of the scale and that’s where we get

(05:48) into extreme narcissism and narcissism uh personality disorder where it’s becomes manipulative and uh harmful to others around you and even yourself at some point yeah pretty much and you you really just described two sides of of the same coin where you know the edge would be most people and that um that’s also another big topic but you could call one end of the scale there’s another popular term out there empaths and um that i have a little bit of a a different spin on that um empaths see it’s if for a human being it’s

(06:32) normal for them it’s normal for a human being to have empathy right [Music] so but to call yourself an empath i’m an empath and and and what they list off under under empathic traits are often um that is often the end of the spectrum from from narcissism because empaths like you mentioned um they they abandon really themselves for others and narcissists abandon others for themselves so so those are really opposite ends of the spectrum and and being an empath and abandoning yourself constantly for the needs of other people

(07:16) um that is equally out of balance um and bad for you as as being a narcissist yeah that makes that does make sense uh i was wondering that you use the word abandonment in both of the sides of that scale is that where a lot of this stems from when we’re talking about narcissistic personality disorder or npd to shorten it up because i don’t want to have to say that everything yeah yeah yeah is that where is abandonment issue really what’s causing people to really go towards being an empath or towards

(07:48) being um you know a narcissist where in either of those cases it can become harmful to yourself or others um i mean i can answer that in a way that like that our our podcast like would be over and that would be it because it’s really it really comes down to um trauma and somebody um somebody once said that if you if you actually took all these mental disorders out of the dsm v it and and just replace it with the word trauma you could just throw the whole book away because these things and i and you asked me in

(08:26) the beginning but there’s so many layers to this that when you ask me a question like my mind goes in like five different directions it’s it’s really complex and interrelated so even in the beginning you asked me you know what is narcissism etc you can in fact for example a woman who’s experiencing domestic violence and she’s pregnant or she gets pregnant and actually getting pregnant can often be the catalyst to domestic violence that can often be the the start of it um and having that kind of maternal

(09:00) stress in utero you know when your mom is like pregnant with you you you are basting not purposefully of course but through the situational violence fear you know cortisol adrenaline like all these hormones are you know when you’re being abused they’re all um coursing through your body and and those all go into the baby and it has been um if if you if to me this stuff is fascinating so if you google like serial killers and and people with with some of the other cluster disorders like psychopaths sociopath etc

(09:38) they there is a higher proportion of those type of mentally challenged let’s just call it types of people that come from severely uh poverty-stricken abusive domestic violence single mom type situations so this is how abuse often becomes generational and how in some cases not all of course but in some cases having that type of extreme stress during pregnancy or even pre-verbal when you’re just a baby that can that can cause changes in the brain that become permanent what do you think so like why is it nurture over nature or like why do

(10:27) some people experience extreme trauma and don’t become uh don’t end up having a personality disorder because i know a lot of people um even myself which i know narcissists don’t ask this question but even myself right now i’m thinking oh well i had a lot of trauma i wonder if i’m i have this disorder so what what is it that maybe causes it in some and not in others who have experienced an extreme amount of trauma well i mean trauma causes ptsd it doesn’t it doesn’t necessarily cause

(10:59) narcissism for most people who have trauma they they end up with ptsd like later on in life or or the survivors of domestic violence end up with ptsd the kids do um that’s not that’s not really the the same um the sort of sort of thing that i that i was talking about um i’ll give you an example like um i think about i don’t know if you guys remember elizabeth smart she was 14 and some guy kidnapped her out of her bedroom and she’s now um and they had her first these two psychopaths had her for about

(11:37) a year and she she she endured extreme you know rape and and whatnot and um and now she is actually uh a public speaker she’s overcome these things because she had a good start and a supportive family and help and resources when she came back and i think that’s um resilience goes a long way to to being okay i mean happens to all of us in life um but not it it depends on each person’s situation and circumstances and and their start in life what kind of support system they have there’s a lot of differing factors

(12:28) right so say you take somebody a vietnam vet who already has trauma and then he has a car accident or ends up in a plane crash and but he’s sitting next to somebody where none of these things have ever happened and they have a great support system which person is going to be more affected by the same trauma it’s it’s because of that person’s past history right and you also said dsmv um a lot of listeners probably don’t know what that is can you can you just say what that is also um it’s it’s basically the the

(13:03) the textbook that psychiatrists use to diagnose patients so everything is in their like from bipolar to borderline personality disorder narcissism it’s the diagnostic and statistical manual and the v stands for that’s the fifth edition yeah yeah so there’s four others before that yeah thanks for clarifying that i was gonna yeah the same thing diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders fifth edition yeah yeah okay so if you guys want any have any deeper questions on this there’s a textbook ready for you

(13:36) yeah right and you can just you can google that you don’t have to actually go by the textbook you can just google dsmv for narcissism and it’ll it’ll populate the the definition from the textbook yeah that’s great yeah yeah and i’m sure our listeners have heard of ptsd but just to clarify on that that is obviously a disorder that happens whenever we experience something very traumatic um it’s kind of what uh we have to work through later on in life you’ve probably heard it in regards to

(14:07) veterans or someone who’s experienced some really terrifying stuff in possibly war or young childhood yeah and most people don’t know that right they think oh you know i couldn’t have ptsd i didn’t go to war the the top three causes of ptsd are domestic violence um childhood emotional neglect and trauma and um of course going to war yeah yeah yeah so it’s it’s it’s a serious um domestic violence and and child abuse is a serious problem with huge consequences for society and you know everywhere

(14:47) yeah i think just speaking from my own personal experience and um i haven’t labeled it necessarily ptsd but just the idea of knowing that i have stuff that i’ve stuffed away in my past especially and specifically tied to uh being with a narcissistic um romantic partner in my earlier dating years uh i know that those are traumas you know things that happened there that were really dark and really rough for for me to go through as one of my first relationships and i still have to work through a lot of it and a lot of it still has you know it

(15:29) bled into many relationships after that and it’s still bleeding into my marriage now um and my relationship with others so i think that just knowing that we even if the wound doesn’t seem like it’s that huge compared to someone else who might have suffered you know literally getting shot or something at war it is still the experience of our nervous system um that’s how that’s being affected and we have to be able to work through that um and and i think we’re going to dive deeper into that with you as well

(16:00) is the um is the lack of empathy what makes it different from other personality disorders i mean different i mean all all the disorders are kind of different but the the ones that are the cluster bees are um that’s kind of the main characteristic um is is is really the coldness and the lack of empathy it’s it’s almost like um it’s been described kind of as reptilian brain that’s that’s why they have i don’t know if you that the dead-eyed stare i don’t know if you guys have experienced that you know

(16:38) what i’m talking about like you can just you know what i mean like i i watch like serial killer documentaries and stuff i find the stuff so fascinating but when you when they when they put up the mug shot of the of the guy that did the crime you’re like whoa like it’s always the eyes it’s hollow yeah like there’s nothing i just because you we think of the the abuse that you um that people receive from narcissists and it’s so um it’s so different than from you know when you’re with someone who

(17:07) might struggle with borderline personality or with bipolar it’s it’s a different type of abuse it’s so um i would say that to me because i’ve dated um a few of each of those i think to me that it was the lack of empathy that i would say set that one person apart yeah definitely they just don’t care they don’t love they don’t feel they just use and when they’re done using you and you’re you know um they just leave you yeah it’s like they love you for what you can do for them

(17:42) yeah and so then when you’re not able to do anything for them say you’re pregnant or you’re sick yeah um yeah there’s no love present yeah you’re doing a lot for them and when you’re singing their praises because you’re in love with them you feel loved by them because that’s when you’re feeding that’s when you’re giving them what they need yep their supply narcissistic supply yeah exactly right do you have any story um from euro obviously you got interested in this work because of your own story so maybe

(18:14) there’s a piece of that there that you can share with us that has got that idea jay just talked about to be really clear in your mind of how that all works um i mean my story i i like to i like to say that our the survivor stories are the ones that are different but the story the narcissist is always the same they always abuse the same way they use the same tactics the same words they they even you know they’ll take the next target to the same restaurant that you guys used to go to and you’ll be heartbroken and how can he do that but

(18:59) literally all they do is they replace one body with the next body with the next body we’re all interchangeable so my story is is no different um really i um i i i was with i was with a narcissist i knew him in high school we lost touch for many years met up again um many years later and the classic love bombing he had um you know i was i was in my my young 20s at the time and and he already had a daughter with somebody else and he did the whole um oh yeah she’s you know she won’t let me see she won’t let me see my kid she’s so

(19:45) crazy she’s such a they also see the whole thing they all say that and fast forward 20 years later now i know that but the girls out there they don’t they believe it because why wouldn’t you you don’t you don’t learn this stuff in high school nobody tells you nobody teaches you you kind of learn if it actually happens to you so um long story short he he didn’t raise his daughter he wasn’t a father to her but i i didn’t really think about it because i thought well it’s all the you know of

(20:16) course it’s the mom’s fault she’s keeping the child from him blah blah and then i ended up with with uh two kids with him um one right after the other and by the time i had the first one um i already i was like oh oh damn you know i was i basically became a single mom overnight and then um he came back hoovered me did the whole love bombing thing found out i was pregnant again and i thought i’m i’m really in trouble and he he really launched quite a campaign to to make sure that i did keep the

(20:56) pregnancy um we went he took me to counseling oh i’ll be there for you we’ll work it out blah blah and as soon as as soon as i had um my second daughter he he basically he was like yeah bye and and this just continued the cycle of abuse continued for years because what are you going to do now you have two kids with this person you think oh you know i need to work this out with this person it’s their dad you know the the things that society tells you are the right things to do but don’t feel right don’t work out right

(21:34) um and many years of financial abuse not paying proper child support the whole nine yards um to the point where i ended up in bankruptcy and losing my house and that is um that’s what we call financial abuse you know this is what these guys do they make things so hard for you financially by not paying child support not paying their fair share quitting their jobs whatever whatever it takes to screw you over they don’t think about their kids um and when he did see the girls he’d take them you know he’d take them somewhere for a couple

(22:12) hours maybe once twice a month that was about it and what i didn’t find out until years later was that he was very abusive to them while they were with him and now they have both been diagnosed with ptsd so it’s it’s and it’s my story is not uncommon it’s um it’s yeah it sounds very familiar to a lot of other similar in a lot of other stories i almost wonder if something about this personality disorder if it if they purposefully get woman pregnant because they need the sense of power and

(22:46) control and so then when they have a kid with you they’re almost always having some even not paying child support is a way of controlling you it’s a way of having power over you when you have a child with a narcissist you are trapped for the rest of your life unless you can figure out a way out because we’re we’re all um we’re no contact now um all of us all three of us but abusers somehow know um you guys have heard the expression barefoot and pregnant it’s it’s called reproductive coercion and

(23:20) abusers know that the more children you have the less likely you will be able to leave and so us saying this it also i just want to clarify it does make it sound like we’re um generalizing it to men like we’re saying like the men are the narcissists um is it con it’s is it about half and half women and men when it comes to narcissism no and that’s a complex question too and i get this a lot and i get a lot of men in my dms going well it’s women too definitely it is women women of course are narcissists but it’s about um

(24:04) say the proportion is more men about three-quarters more men are narcissistic than women and the the bigger picture of that is the type of society that we live in we live in a patriarchal society run by men right it’s a misogynistic culture sexist culture look at you can just look in the news these days to see the oppression of women and the exploitation of women playing out you know with with cases like harvey weinstein and and all these rich powerful mostly white men um calling the shots you know they’re

(24:45) they’re trying to backtrack um all the planned parenthood funding now and abortion rights who thought that would happen you know what i mean and and it’s just it’s just a culture that that is really right now for some reason um anti-woman and very punishing to the females yes very much so and and this is how these cultural norms kind of grow these gender stereotypes the lack of equality i mean women are still making less money for the same job than men are in america in 2020 so it’s it’s more than just saying

(25:29) you know narcissists right it’s it’s really part of the bigger picture yeah it makes me wonder i mean the the the whole patriarchy that we live in is a whole another conversation of course on top of this yeah um and and you’re speaking there to you know toxic masculinity and things that we’re trying to unwind as we speak literally um yep but i wonder i guess it brings up to me a question about how much hormones and um the the way that they direct us living in more of a masculine energy or feminine energy

(26:12) dictates our tendency to go and become overly narcissistic i mean i think when you live in a world where i don’t think it has anything to do with hormones i think it’s fully cultural i think when when women are oppressed for a very long time by men um [Music] things turn upside down and this is why we find ourselves in the in you know the way the world is today yeah i think you’re definitely right about the the social climate and our culture breeding a lot of this unbalance to our lives um yeah but i have this idea that

(26:57) that you know on this show we talk a lot about sexual polarity we talk a lot about the the yin yang and and feminine and masculine energy and masculine energy speaks very much to control and creating a container and being the they say so you know of the relationship the alpha if you will so of course being a someone with npd you’re all the way on that spec on the end of the spectrum where you are the only one that has anything to say about anything and that’s all you know whatever you say is the only thing that matters and we’re

(27:29) going to go with that so i just it feels so masculine you know and then of course you’re saying that to back that up um the numbers speak largely to males being the ones who embody this personality disorder um more commonly than women so i’m just that’s i guess i’m just tying those pieces together as a thesis but it has no backing to it um that’s really interesting stuff though so so you you were going to tell us about uh your name and um identity and why you’ve decided to keep that uh to yourself and how that all came

(28:05) about well pretty much for for mainly the reason that you just talked about um there are um it didn’t start out that way i i started my um i started my page after i was finally able to fully go no contact with my narcissist and then i started googling like we all do and then i couldn’t stop for three years um full-time read every book um [Music] delved into this fully head first and then i i had you know i had all these screenshots and yada yada and so my you know my kids are on instagram of course i was like oh what am i going

(28:48) to do with all these screenshots i’ll just like i need to put them somewhere like whatever i’ll just do an instagram so i did and i i you know there were not too many narcissistic abuse pages at the time when i started so i chose narcissist survivor and it within um i mean a really really short period of time my kids were amazed um i had you know a thousand three thousand sometimes i’d grow like a couple thousand overnight and it just kept on like that exponentially and um and so that’s how that’s how the name

(29:30) stuck but then with that come the trolls and the messages and i did a while back it’s probably still up there i don’t think i deleted it but i did um i did a little bit of a series called um o brandon um and brandon was the symbol of all the men that had appeared in my dms basically saying what the are you telling my girlfriend um or you know i’m gonna blank blank blank you know stuff like that abusers don’t like to lose control of their victims so when if if you’re abusing your girlfriend and she’s coming

(30:11) on my page finding out that that what you’re doing you’re cheating lying manipulating gaslighting ghosting that that all constitutes abuse that that abuse is not just a black eye and we need to really get that out there the the worst kind of abuse is the abuse that you don’t see and the stuff that happens behind closed doors that doesn’t leave a bruise so um so i thought you know i i’m this is great for me i’m i’m gonna go by narcissist survivor it works for me that’s gonna be my my handle when i

(30:51) you know do podcasts and whatnot um because i i do want to stay safe i don’t want these people to what are they going to turn up at my door i don’t know but i’m not willing to take that chance and especially you know like i said i have uh i have a couple of uh they’re older now but a couple of kids and it just wasn’t worth it to to do it any other way you know what i mean and for me it’s it’s always been important to spread the message rather than to to to self-promote if that makes sense

(31:28) yeah i totally make sense and i think it’s beautiful that even though there’s a lot of obstacles that you could have said no to this journey you decided to take it take it on anyway um and and that actually brings up in me the same kind of fear you know it’s fear is what it is yeah and that’s the ptsd you’re speaking to earlier it’s fear of when we even talk about this on our show it’s going to trigger the people who first of all are narcissists you know that are yep in an extreme way dealing with this npd um

(32:02) and i found it right off the bat triggering you know doing some research for interviewing you for myself which i thought was really interesting and i you know stopped and sat with that and obviously what came up was this relationship with an ex of mine from when i was 18 or 19 that i had stuffed away for so many years because it was the ugliest literally the ugliest part of my you know former years um and i think it’s the the story of being a victim whether it comes through this like your story with npd or with someone with mpd or it comes

(32:41) through really almost any of the stories that we hear in the metoo movement um of course there are there is nothing i want to take away from anyone who’s been a victim of someone with npd or anyone who’s been a victim of rape or you know any of these terrible tragedies and dramatic happenings that happen to people um but i just want to be clear with our listeners and and say that i found myself triggered as well and if you’re finding yourself triggered i think it’s important you you listen through and see why that’s coming up for

(33:18) you and what what that means maybe in this conversation because i think a lot of us have been dealing with this this to some degree whether it’s a relationship with our parents or the relationship with our um our romantic partner or whatever whatever person in our lives that’s close enough to get this kind of stranglehold on us and we haven’t identified it but when we feel triggered there’s something we need to look at there and so um for me i had a person in my life who i guess i was young enough and naive enough and had to

(33:52) go through it in order to realize you know and come up the other end of it um what was happening but he he was dealing with depression and i felt responsible to help him get through that um and we had bipolar which these things weren’t even diagnosed at the time and it really was taboo to kind of go to therapy at the time it’s thank god times are changing and with the show we’re hoping to change it even quicker but those are all things that i didn’t even have really words for yet or wasn’t

(34:23) able to label in him and now when i look back it’s very clear um but he was violent you know and sometimes physically abusive but for me it was like this fear of abandonment that kept me there and he also isolated me i wasn’t allowed to have contact with friends or family um he’d make a case for why no one else would ever want me and now when i look back on it it’s so so farfuck yeah it’s so far from the person that i am today and it’s so obvious of what was happening there when i look back on it

(34:58) you know hindsight is 2020. but when you are in it and when you can call yourself a victim of it it which is that situation when you are in it it is clear to everyone out outside of it watching you like all my friends and family it was clear to them what was happening yeah um but you just don’t you just don’t see it that way and now it feels almost like i think the thing that triggered me most is that it feels like i was a dummy forever allowing that to happen to me or i should have known better you know these are the voices i

(35:31) tell myself all the things i shame myself into feeling um like it’s i’m not worthy of calling myself a victim does that make sense it makes total sense but if you reframe it how the hell are you supposed to know i didn’t know myself you know what i mean um how many kids in high school leave high school and they don’t even know how to read exactly how how are like what do you what are you learning where are you learning this certainly not in in health education class nobody is telling you about this

(36:07) stuff how would you possibly know all you know is what you’ve what you see on tv or hearing social media or what i always used to think when i was younger that domestic violence meant that somebody was beating you up and if it wasn’t that then it wasn’t that bad absolutely but how can you how can you know anything like that if if you have not been shown taught you haven’t read a book nothing you you’re you literally don’t have the information you need in order to figure it out it’s

(36:40) like trying to put together something from ikea with no directions yeah and do you know what i mean yeah and speaking of that that makes i i wanted to ask like how can we so just because knowledge of it is what we we lacked how can we spot the signs of narcissism and also what makes us a target to them um again multi-level question yeah they all are that’s why um i mean that’s that’s why it’s now my mission in life to do what i do to appear on shows like yours to to spread awareness about it um you know a lot of people

(37:21) even you know this word is so common and a lot of people are out there you know oh yeah he’s like a narcissist blah blah but if you don’t actually google what is a narcissist it’s it’s quite different than just having that word kind of in your mouth do you know what i mean it gives it so much more meaning when you actually look at it and read about it and this is what my my whole thing is it’s not talk therapy that helps you recover from narcissistic abuse it’s not any of that usual stuff it’s information

(38:00) because once you have a bit of an understanding about the dynamics of narcissism what narcissistic abuse is how it affects you etc once you have a bit of a working knowledge things and understanding the understanding leads to to healing ultimately you know it’s like the light bulb moment when you read about love bombing you’re like oh yeah that’s what he was doing when he’d bring me flowers after ghosting me for three weeks you know like you begin to once you start to have the words i think you mentioned

(38:36) um that you didn’t have like words to describe what was happening and that is often what it is you don’t have the words to describe cycle of abuse or intermittent reinforcement or gaslighting you don’t even know what those things are and until you do you can’t apply them to your own life and situation absolutely clarity is is everything uh you know fine i guess we could call it finding the truth or seeking the truth out and that’s what knowledge really is isn’t it it’s just figuring out the

(39:09) labels so that our human minds can understand it with the tools that we have available so yeah yeah i think i mean it seems so simple like yeah just research it and then it’ll help you clarify but you don’t even know what you need to research it first i know and this is why it takes so long to figure it out and and to heal and it’s hard to recognize the signs because they’re never that person in the beginning right yes exactly exactly and and you asked what makes a person susceptible to to a narcissist

(39:43) um it can really be anything um there’s something called a high value target which would be somebody like you know they target somebody famous or somebody married and they take that person and dismantle their um their work life or their marriage and that is their source of supply now they’ll take anything like it depends on on their needs somebody um somebody posted a meme not long ago that said there’s there’s nobody who loves you more than a narcissist who needs a place to stay so all these women oh i get so many dms

(40:20) from women ladies stop doing this stop letting these boys with no job move into your place so many women are accepting so little from these guys they don’t work they’re supporting these men with no jobs no credit they’re getting them cars etc um also upside down and backwards if you you want to have um and some of them have jobs right they still aren’t willing to contribute right so it’s it’s still um the same thing yeah you’re i mean you’re you’re you’re you’re like their mommy right you’re

(41:00) you’re feeding them you’re cooking them dinner you’re doing all these things for them and and it’s basically now you have an extra child right um and and a lot of that can be you know loneliness or being a single mom is hard you want to have that partner to help you um but it’s you really put yourself behind the eight ball sometimes just just even out of simple loneliness everybody wants to be connected to somebody right to have that to have that relationship um so we accept less than we deserve

(41:36) yeah if we if we come from a history of um an absent father ourselves that’s what we call daddy issues um you’re also gonna pick a guy who’s emotionally unavailable aka a narcissist um you know if you come from an abusive home that’s gonna seem normal to you when when he starts calling you names and and whatnot well that’s normal that’s you saw that at home so i guess since it’s so hard to spot the signs really the only thing we can do is make sure that we are um working on our own healing

(42:14) um so that we’re choosing something different for ourselves exactly and you’re not you’re not narcissists are predatory it’s like a shark when they can smell blood in the water if you are lonely needy desperate for love they can smell that on you from a mile away if you are if you’re hurting you need to be healing not dating or you’re just going to end up with another one of these and another one and another one god that’s so hard to get across though in a way that people can actually use it’s i know we

(42:53) say it over and over again i know i heard it said over and over again when i was younger and going through this and it didn’t even it’s hard to fathom it’s hard to fathom yeah and it’s it really it’s so frustrating that um in the beginning they really do seem so wonderful um because people listening to this might think oh this doesn’t fit the guy i just met right you know yeah yeah and it’s hard to to because of course everyone puts their best foot forward when you start dating but it’s

(43:26) also there are some traits i think that you can look out for the thing is like you’re you’re speaking to here is even if we list off the traits which i’m happy to do i have some actually sitting in front of me some some um attention yeah from i just happened to have a list from psyccentral.

(43:46) com here because i was going to use it for my magic trick yeah i i took that test yeah so i got a 9. well let me explain it hilarious let me explain it this way it’s not that there aren’t signs because there are um there there are definitely signs which we can get into but what is designed to blow us by those signs even though we see them and feel them is love-bombing and that is the whole secret to a narcissist is the love bombing and right away what love bombing is real quick for people who don’t know i i’m i absolutely will love bombing is

(44:22) when they’re in love with you two hours after you’ve met they’re you’re the best thing that’s ever happened to them they’ve never met anybody like you all their exes are crazy let’s go away for two weeks even though we just met in fact let’s go to vegas and get married let’s have a baby right away that you’re my soul mate oh my god my absolute favorite you’re my soul mate the soul mate scam this this intense love bombing is how women think they’ve met prince charming

(44:55) and it’s not it love bombing is a red flag if somebody is in love with you suddenly out of nowhere and thinks you’re the greatest thing since sliced bread you need to take a step back no matter how you’ve dreamed of this your whole life take a step back and really just give that a bit of space to see to see what else shows up in that space because that’s the number one way that narcissists trick and trap us and before you know it you’re head over heels in love with this guy and then guess what the mask

(45:32) and the true person comes out and you spend the next five years trying to get the person back who love bombed you in the beginning but that person actually never existed it was all just blowing smoke up your you know what yeah but the narcissist doesn’t necessarily do this in a i mean is it completely conscious on their end that’s my question yeah well see the thing is you can only if you’re a narcissist you can only pretend to be um to have feelings of love or love somebody or act so they don’t think that

(46:10) they’re really feeling these no they’re not really feeling these things that it’s it’s designed to have you fall in love with them quickly so that they can go back to being themselves and can start re doing what they really want to do which is using and abusing you so once we’re in that situation how do we walk ourselves out of that or run ourselves out of that what’s an exit plan yeah um well it depends um how one thing i like to say is if your friends and family can’t stand the person that you’re dating

(46:55) pay attention even if you don’t want to because they can they can see what this guy has has blinded you to but narcissists are so charming that a lot of times for me the narcissist that i’ve been with everyone loves them in the beginning and they’re yeah and there’s food as well yeah yeah and there’s that as well and that goes you know like i said there’s so many different scenarios with a narcissist you’ll you’ll try and tell people what’s happening to you and they’ll be like oh

(47:24) no he jim couldn’t be like that he’s a great guy he coaches the soccer team you know absolutely and it’s it’s all for show um how do you walk yourselves out i mean it depends on how far you’re in i guess you know it’s it’s a lot harder to walk out when he’s convinced you to have a baby with him then it is you know it’s it’s really painful for people to let go of these relationships um so like i said i mean the the the remedy that i have for that is information if you are confused in a

(48:08) relationship if you don’t know where you stand if if this guy’s ghosting you half the time or he’s always sorry or he does something terrible and then brings you flowers these things are all red flags so again it’s information once you understand a little bit about the dynamics of abuse the cycle of abuse for example which which is you know starts at love bombing goes into tension building and then explosion and then silent treatment and then back to love bombing and it just repeats and repeats

(48:38) um you know the only thing that’s going to make any sense to you at some point in time is to have that inter information and to transpose it onto your own um what’s happening in your own relationship yeah that becomes very survival at that point it seems like and and it’s hard i think in the midst of something like that because once you’re wound up in something like that i i think and from my own personal experience it’s likely because you are not conscious of your attachment issues yet you are not conscious of um

(49:18) how you have maybe like you were saying earlier abandonment issues or daddy issues or whatever you want to call them but basically attachment issues yeah the idea that you need someone else in order to be okay and that’s a really important sentence you know do you feel like you need someone else in order to be okay because once you can decide yes or no on that and if you’re in if you feel stuck or trapped in a relationship with someone with npd you most likely would answer that yes i feel like i need this person in order

(49:54) to feel okay now that you’ve detected that you have an attachment issue with this person you can start doing some of the self work to unravel and unwind some of that but something you’ve said before was to be prepared to mourn the loss of this relationship as if someone has died yeah definitely because it has to be like that in the end you have to build a wall between yourself and that person of of no contact ever again and and again i get women all the time saying you know oh i have kids i have kids i you know i’m

(50:29) going to live in hell like this forever and no you’re not because with a narcissist you really have to you have to go through the process of you know the whole the full court press basically you know you have to go to court you have to get a proper lawyer you have to do all that stuff whatever it takes and then they don’t do what the court says typically yeah exactly which which is another um i mean it looks good on you at the end of the day when you when you have taken all the proper steps and he doesn’t pay child

(50:59) support or turn up for his visits or whatever it just looks better on you so that you can gain full custody and at the end of the day having a guy who’s having a narcissist for a parent will set you up to it to accept a narcissistic person in in your later relationships so the kids aren’t missing right the kids aren’t missing like their great dad it’s not like that it’s they’re he’s an abuser at the end of the day so you know of course they’re missing the good side the p p the picture that

(51:35) he paints and the um [Music] the times that he feels needed by his kids so he’s um [Music] being loving right but i’m curious there in parenting is it i don’t think that it is possible really to ever co-parent with a narcissist so what are some things we can do at least to try to make it a healthy situation for the children um i’d love to say no contact because that’s pretty pretty much it but limited contact if you can get um if you can get the courts to do a psych assessment which is really very rare

(52:14) um or ask for supervised visits what whatever you can do or always have a third party there um with him and the kids you know that type of thing just just so you can just so they’re not alone with this person you know some narcissists go to extremes with their kids and you know they all abuse their kids um isn’t it abuse when you’re abusing your kid’s mother in front of them yeah that’s true i mean that’s abuse yeah it’s emotional abuse and and a man who loves his children does not abuse

(52:54) their mother that’s true you know so the short answer is yes and financial abuse is abuse if if you know i remember for a time before i got my my thing sorted out in in court the proper way which took a decade by the way um my kids had holes in their socks you know there are some things you have to you know there’s some things that you have to go without while while you’re going through all of this because they make it very hard for you and and just leaving is um a lot of women stay just for just for

(53:32) that fact that they they want to be there they want to be there to make sure nothing happens to their kids they’re they don’t know what they’re going to do finally i guess how are you going to work with four kids yeah realistically you know what i mean and i guess when the narcissist when the parent with the npd is actively trying to be in the kid’s life it may be their way of having power and control still not not actually genuinely wanting to be in their life so absolutely narcissists don’t love their children and they don’t

(54:08) co-parent they country right and um oh something else just came to my mind with that um a lot of times what what will happen and this is very common these days and again it’s the court system is very patriarchal most of the judges are male and and everyone thinks like women can just go to court and get custody and blah blah it’s it’s not always the case what often happens is that she’s not she’s not feeling so good herself after years of abuse so she’s the one that turns up disheveled and crying and he’s

(54:43) sitting there calm as a cucumber and he says well just you know judge just a look at her she’s crazy or she’s taking a drinking or something and and you know she’s trying to alienate the kids from me and keep them keep me away from from my kids your honor and these guys often end up with custody of the kids by doing that and it’s not because they want the kids or they love them because they’re not they don’t want to have to take care of anything exactly exactly and it’s only to hurt us

(55:17) and the kids are just collateral down or to have someone to be in control of yeah yeah yeah yeah um do you do with all this ugliness that we’re talking about it is heavy it is really heavy and um it makes me think about something i say a lot on this show which is that even you know when we talk about our childhood traumas and we say like this is what happened to me or my you know parent was this way or whatever whatever thing that someone might look at and go oh my god that’s terrible they just must be a terrible person but we often put a

(55:53) disclaimer on things like we believe i believe that yeah first of all hurt people hurt people but also that everyone is doing the very best they can from their perspective and from where they and i have to disagree with you on that okay with narcissist or somebody like that these things do not apply they just don’t there are many many survivors ourselves included we’ve been hurt all three of us talking right now in our lives we’ve been hurt we’re not trying to go out and hurt other people no absolutely but i’m saying that

(56:32) even the serial killer is doing from his perspective and his domestications that brought him to be that person you know and commit these horrendous crimes is doing what he can from that moment now all of us looking at him would go well i would never freaking do that obviously that’s just ridiculous it’s you know we use common sense or whatever else we think that are our tools and and what we have come to know as um the moral way to live but he is not working from that place and someone with npd i would assume is kind of in a similar

(57:07) fashion working from a completely different place than we can even begin to understand um and it’s not to sympathize with this abuser but it’s to be able to release the anger at that person so that you can move on with your life um i think that’s what i’m getting at with that so i was wondering if you’d think that that can apply in any way um answer is still no because we cannot and this is where a lot of people have a they kind of this is where it falls apart for them you cannot um you cannot

(57:45) put normal human emotions onto someone with npd or a serial killer social past psychopath they are not like us they lack what makes a person a human being really at the end of the day is empathy empathy and if you lack that you’re not hurt you are just you are lacking a fundamental human trait so it’s almost like you’re not even the same species and sometimes which sounds terrible but but sometimes you know your anger is the only thing that often saves you from falling into deep despair you have a right to be angry at somebody

(58:27) who has dismantled your life completely you do not have to forgive them in fact they probably don’t even think about you and it’s it’s unfair and a lot of people really struggle with this and a lot of people never really fully recover either themselves or their lives before the narcissist they’ve lost their children they’ve lost their homes a lot of women end up actually homeless um because of domestic violence and narcissistic abuse homeless so it’s you know um you really don’t have to forgive your

(59:06) abuser it’s it’s sometimes it’s just not possible or or realistic and you can still heal in spite of that and you can still regain some version of yourself that makes your life meaningful still and means something to you i noticed that whenever i came out of the relationship with the the first relationship that was with someone who um was extremely narcissistic i floated to perhaps the other extreme for a bit and i kind of projected some of the same tendencies and you know it’s going to be all about me this time and i’m not going

(59:58) to let that happen to me and again and that type of you know idea and and i didn’t you know and i i really went to another it’s like it’s like when you come out of a relationship you usually go to the exact opposite and then you float you know you kind of ping pong back and forth and you hope one day you find some sort of balance in between the two self work during all that i think you do get to get there that’s the like tunnel but for sure just because i um you know i felt myself go to that other

(1:00:25) place i didn’t feel myself in the moment but now i can see it i should say and i was not the best uh person in relationship with the next person i was with and i was um abusive in the nature of you know talking down to them or making them feel bad about whatever it was and so kind of playing out that similar role um as a narcissist and now that i can recognize that that’s i think where i’m trying to find some sort of common ground that allows me to see any human as human and of course we don’t have to end up

(1:01:03) agreeing on this but it’s just that’s just i guess where my mind’s playing with it so yeah i i mean i i understand but um [Music] and and i’ll speak to the first part of what you said there this is this is again comes to you but jumping from a relationship to relationship with no healing or self-reflection in between leads to that behavior exactly yeah and and that’s why it’s so important to do your healing work after a relationship you cannot just get into another relationship because obviously you’re

(1:01:43) just going to repeat some not great stuff you know what i mean yeah um that’s key but yeah right but another example i’ll use is like even with parenting with a narcissist you know a lot of women are still out there trying to co-parent trying to do the right thing trying to put some kind of human form on this person right but it’s just not there yeah no i get that do you think that the only way to co-parent with a narcissist is through the court or do you think that because most women who have children with a narcissist are

(1:02:24) probably scared to go to the court because they know things will get ugly um to get to court right so um say someone is parenting with um that they have kids with a narcissist and um yeah they’re trying to just get through it they’re just trying to make it healthy for the kids um and that person still is trying to keep their claws in calling all the time trying to control who you see and all that stuff um you you think that court is the only answer no i could never make that type of blanket statement but you you ha what

(1:03:05) you have to understand is these guys so once you have it once you have a child with a narcissist you can’t just leave and be gone except forever again right so and and children by definition become secondary supply so what women often end up doing is just allowing this person to continually cross their boundaries for example you know this guy doesn’t have a car or a place to take the kids so they let him come back into the home or they lend him the car or he won’t buy car seats so you go buy him car seats you know stuff like this

(1:03:49) it just goes on and on and on or he’s yeah that’s so verbatim of so many people’s stories yeah yeah it is it is and you know what you will spend the rest of your life like that if there is never think of a narcissist as a black hole and all you’re doing you’re throwing yourself in the hole your children your money the car seats the diapers everything is just you’re just throwing everything into this bottomless pit and it will never be filled up and you will end up empty so it’s either that or you need to

(1:04:24) go through some kind of process however that looks for you to get to a place where there are boundaries that are no longer being crossed by the by the narcissist they can no longer encroach on your life and take it over to such an extent that you really still don’t even have a life even though you’re not even living in and i’ve really only seen that happen once the woman is remarried it’s like that’s when they have some boundaries that they can lay down because is there do you have some some maybe tips or

(1:05:03) situational examples of how someone might be able to lay down boundaries yes good question um i mean i do and i don’t because each each situation is going to look a little bit different so it just depends on it depends on a lot of factors kids no kids um i mean honestly some narcissists actually just take off and you never see them again they never see the kids they just go somewhere else and start over and make more kids you know that kind of thing um it it really it it really just depends on on your particular situation but you definitely

(1:05:48) need to get help you need to document everything you need to really that’s important yeah document document everything you need to if you can’t afford a lawyer you need to find somewhere that you can go to talk to somebody you can go to women’s aid you can go to whatever is in your community you can call some of the the shelters for battered women they have resources there are support groups for abused women those those support groups are gold you can make friends you can relate to other people you can share resources and

(1:06:27) information you can share you know who’s a good lawyer and who’s not your lawyer needs to specialize in high conflict if you’re paying for a lawyer yourself if you’re married you’re entitled to have even if he doesn’t give you his money willingly you’re entitled to it if you’re married whether he tells you something different or not that’s the law and a lot of women don’t even understand that part you know or they’ve been told something so different by their abuser and again what does it come down to

(1:07:03) information get out there get yourself how if if if you have a dollar to your name or a million dollars on that spectrum there is some kind of support and service for you out there you just have to look for it and find it what causes npd say again what causes npd in someone i think we kind of went over that in the in the beginning the it can be um is it any genetic is it any besides maybe a modeling from a parent or something like that is there more to it than that or is it kind of a mix of variables that are not really

(1:07:50) we can’t necessarily always target back to um yeah of course of course these are just some of the known ways like i said on domestic violences and and stress um violence in in early childhood and whatnot um child abuse um can really turn um a child’s brain some kind of way you know they they just disassociate and um it can cause all kinds of issues um another a lot of people like to say you know parents cause narcissism they have like a golden child or they have like the favorite son the hockey player and stuff

(1:08:29) like that but in the beginning we kind of made that distinction between an actual someone an actual person with npd and someone with a high level of narcissism and again those are two different things but absolutely if you have your golden child son or daughter and the other children are kind of forgotten in the background of course this this person is going to grow up thinking they’re all that in a bag of chips you know i yeah that that makes a lot of sense but i’ve had abuse in my childhood and i um disassociated a lot

(1:09:08) um and so that made me nervous that maybe i i had this personality disorder and that’s why i took that quiz because i thought well what if i do um and yeah i got a load test but then i wondered well what if narcissists answer the way that they like alter their answers knowing because it’s like they i think deep down they have low self-worth and they hate themselves and so i don’t believe that either i i think that’s something we tell ourselves i i just didn’t know if this test could even be accurate basically because canon

(1:09:45) which test are you talking about where she’s just talking about the one on um central.com yeah i mean it’s yeah it wasn’t through a therapist but i just i wonder if when a narcissist gets tested for it if they’re able to change the results speak through their answers because they are so good at painting a different picture and they have a skewed version of themselves um and i’m so i’m curious too can we even recognize it in ourselves well for starters people who are not narcissists don’t do those tests

(1:10:20) so i i don’t know what narcissist would actually do that test and and most most narcissists don’t get diagnosed because they just but also other people’s opinions are irrelevant to them for the most part so it’s it’s the narcissists don’t go to therapy it’s it’s the it’s we we go to therapy after they’re done with us that it’s very rare for another basically not diagnosed um narcissistic personality um as it stands today is not curable no neither is psychopaths sociopaths

(1:11:04) yeah so it’s it’s a it’s a it’s a disorder of the brain yeah so their brains are different by some act of god do go to see a therapist and or a medic a mental um psychologist or professional in that range and they diagnose you with npd what do you do at that point what is the do you know the protocol at that point i’m gonna i’m going to sort of reframe that question usually what happens with a narcissist is they drag you to counseling at some point in time so that you won’t leave the relationship so this a lot of

(1:11:45) confusion comes in in this category too well well he said he’d go to counseling now you know yeah because you told him you’d leave so this is what he’s gonna do it’s it’s just part of the cycle of abuse as part of his his tactic of manipulation more often than not like i’m gonna say nine times out of ten the narcissist just like everybody else in their lives will fool the counselor and you’re gonna end up looking like the crazy one and he’s gonna he’s gonna end up i wonder if they would be able to see

(1:12:20) through it or not um they they most often do not and and again most therapists are not trained in narcissism whatsoever you if you’re a counselor or a therapist you do you don’t even have to study narcissism or any of the cluster b’s at all to call yourself a counselor or a therapist or a marriage counselor or any any type of profession like that unless you specialize in it and that’s your thing that’s your angle you’re just you’re just a talk therapist and you’re just going to listen to these

(1:12:54) people talk for an hour a week and try and figure out you know kind of what’s maybe going on and you’re going to treat them like they’re normal humans because they’ve turned up a counseling and you can go years like that in in therapy i myself personally went seven years with a counselor who had a master’s counseling certificate um a master’s like extra extra schooling she still didn’t figure it out until the very end until seven years and and many dollars later wow so and that counseling was on your

(1:13:32) own or with your ex um we went to we went to many different counselors and in all of those years and with all of those different counselors that he you know that he he took me to we’ll try this person we’ll try this we’ll try that not one person ever figured it out wow and this i hear this all the time all the time the first job of a counselor should actually be to separate the couple and determine if there is any domestic violence going on that should be the number one for all counselors literally on earth

(1:14:15) to determine what is actually going on with each person individually i think unfortunately the reason that that doesn’t happen is because if that was the trend then that’s true anyone in an abusive relationship the abuser would not go to counseling with that person you know it would not correct correct so you you basically get nowhere because abuse is not a couple’s problem ever um and there you go it’s it’s just it’s like a hamster wheel right right and and it keeps and it keeps you trapped in the relationship for another

(1:14:51) you know however long five years you know spend five more five years in therapy and you know you don’t get anywhere at the end but you’re still thinking oh well you know he’s still going for counseling and nothing changes so like each counseling session is like a mini love bomb it’s just like a wave showing showing up but it’s really just to continue to leave the story what would you say to someone who um is just getting out of a narcissistic um abusive situation like what what would you say to them as far as

(1:15:26) overcoming it as far as what what they’re the best things they can do right now um again that depends but um building that wall is super important um no people really struggle with you know no contact and again with the kids thing um eventually when you get it you know through mediation or whatever you can go no contact because you are you then have a schedule you have a pickup and drop-off location you have all this stuff figured out so you don’t need to be taking his calls in the middle of the night or anything like that you don’t

(1:16:06) need to answer his texts because there’s a system that you’ve managed to put in place around all of this that that you guys just exist within that system so no contact um is is imperative if you don’t have kids with a narcissist um consider yourself you know you’ve dodged a bullet um despite the circumstances you know a lot of narcissists um you know they’ll foresee to have an abortion or something like this this is also very common and it’s again it’s all about power and control they have

(1:16:42) control over you over what you did um they often berate you for having you make this choice um you know but but at the end of the day um not having a child with a narcissist you’re free even if you don’t feel free right now you can go and you can shut that door you build the wall if if he dies behind the wall that you’ve built the imaginary wall you will know nothing about it you don’t check his social media you block and delete him on everything and you know what come on we know the unknown number calling is

(1:17:18) him don’t answer it okay come on you know it’s it’s it’s always that and we pretend we don’t know but we we know we know so no contact ever again is the only way to heal from narcissistic abuse especially if it’s a particular person okay right yeah that is tough with the kid situation and figuring out how to be as low contact as possible yep yep yeah you you especially when your kids love the man yeah and but you know the thing is they often don’t also you know and they’re often kids are often

(1:17:58) quite relieved um when they don’t have to go see their abuser anymore you know it can go either way right you can go either way for sure yeah yeah well i do see that that is a lot of you’re working in a really heavy on a really heavy issue and i appreciate all that that you’re taking on by doing that because it’s not easy yeah it is heavy it is it is and it’s it’s very um but you know i honestly if if helping other people at this point in time um it made what i went through i’m not even going to say tolerable but

(1:18:45) it it made it made it mean something i guess you know yeah um that i didn’t go through all that for nothing that it didn’t propel me into into the learning that i did and and the study and and all of that you know yeah um so yeah yeah absolutely it’s interesting the things that drive us right it’s like but we could have never predicted something like that being the thing that actually brings us the most light in our life yeah exactly um okay well there are a few short questions we like to ask everyone who comes on the show and these

(1:19:22) do not have to pertain at all to the subject of narcissistic personality disorder but they can if you’d like them to um the first question is if you could hug your younger self right now what would you say um the first thing that came to mind was like trust your gut trust your intuition that’s good yeah yeah if you could whisper one phrase to everyone on the planet what would it be hmm be true to yourself yeah um if you could have the whole world read one book what book would it be oh my god i’m a reader so that’s really

(1:20:13) gonna be tough um you know i think i would say at this point in time is read the book why does he do that by lundy bancroft right yeah why does he do that got it yeah it’s it’s it’s one of the best books most concise enjoyable reads about um about abuse and the dynamics of it out there and i’ve i’ve literally probably read every book there is out there can i ask you your thoughts on the 50 shades of grey movies and books need i say more [Laughter] i i um i mean it it’s i mean it’s a book about

(1:21:06) i i haven’t read it i i i tried to read it many times just because um it’s so badly written i’ll i’ll just say that right off right off the bat but it’s a story of abuse yeah and control and and and being turned into a fantasy yeah what like consuming that type of obviously i’m getting like my temperatures rising just talking about this but but women that’s not it yeah you know and then the same with the the new show called you that’s trending i’ve heard about that too again it’s another it’s another piece of

(1:21:46) trash it’s different but i’m sad about it is that it it finds a way to get you to empathize with the yep with the person they try to make it sexy too you know and normal but don’t forget it’s normal narcissists play on our empathy yeah because normal people humans have empathy that’s a normal part like this is why this whole i’m an empath thing really kind of stop saying that ladies because it literally tells narcissists that you’re open for business you know you’re a target right you’re a

(1:22:28) target of course you have empathy you’re a human it’s it’s that’s the norm the people that are outside of the norm are the ones who don’t have empathy and they are it is a low percentage of the population what these these disordered persons that we’re talking about but their effect on others is huge no absolutely yeah i get what you’re saying there 100 percent i think yeah just because we literally just a few nights ago interviewed someone about um really about all kinds of ways that we

(1:23:12) fantasize sexually and kink and all these really exotic interesting things we dived into but because everybody has such a different idea of what intimacy looks like for them and what kinkiness looks like like for them and this fifty shades of grey has been such a such a big you know hit in our society really like wildfire i just it’s i don’t know it’s just interesting that we go there we we have this idea a lot of women have this idea of wanting that over reigning power you know this powerful man idea whatever that is and wherever that

(1:23:51) comes from for us again have we been sold anything else culturally like really you know what i mean and and and this this conversation is going to like segue into like the porn the heavily saturated porn and extreme porn culture that we’re in right now and i mean like where do you stop with all of this like it’s like you know like all of these things are at an all-time high right now child sex trafficking sex trafficking period jeffrey epstein i mean where do you like where oops sorry where’s the line

(1:24:33) with all of this you know like like it’s like there’s like the lid has been taken off the pot and it’s just like boiling over with with more and more extreme deviant behavior being normalized yeah you know there’s there’s teenage girls and and i had like i i talked about sex to my kids a lot um because i wanted them to know what was up and we talked about porn and everything else and i said you know if you like a guy and he’s really really heavily into porn that’s that’s not ideal

(1:25:08) you know there are girls out here that haven’t kissed a guy and they’re doing anal and they’re 13. so it’s that is a big a big topic yeah it’s a big topic it’s it’s an interesting one to try to navigate to there’s so many opinions in so many different directions um and it’s hard to not get emotional about it because it is such a such a we’re just on the cusp of figuring out what direction to go it feels like as a society with this so yeah exactly and it’s it’s one thing to have

(1:25:48) fantasies and kinks and you know haven’t we all been tied up and whatever but but there’s a difference there’s a difference between as acting out sexual fantasies and actual dangerous predation and you know minor attracted persons and and all of this deviant stuff that i don’t think we need to think too much about whether certain things are right or wrong do you know what i mean yeah absolutely the degree of safety i mean just creating a safe space with your partner is so important so i think that when

(1:26:25) you’re with someone who is literally abusive that is the opposite of that so yeah even in the pink culture it would be a lot a lot of that would be about creating a safe space before anything else happens there and how can you be safe with a narcissist if you’re or a psychopath or a social path do you know what i mean if you like to be tied up and you’ve been tied up by a psychopath right that’s are you different are you going to leave again to be honest like that’s an a that’s an episode of

(1:26:54) like dexter or something that you you know what i mean like like you you really ha it’s it’s really so far-reaching you know yeah it’s a fascinating topic yeah there’s so many facets to it um but i think that what we’ve covered here today is a lot to digest and integrate but it and it’s beautiful and i’m so glad you’re bringing this to the forefront um for whoever’s willing to listen and i hope that anyone who is in a position that is being um you know abused or feels trapped in a

(1:27:28) relationship if you are listening to this that this gives you some hope and a way to get yourself out of there and you know hopefully also gets you on the journey towards healing yourself mind body spirit becoming the best you can be and releasing the toxic people in your life so thank you so much for coming on the show thank you so much girls where can people follow you and find you online and read those amazing posts that we like to look out of yours oh thanks um for some reason instagram really took off for me and it was it was just a

(1:28:07) great platform um for some reason so i’m on instagram obviously at narcissist underscore survivor and um i do have um i do have a couple facebook pages same name um i’m not sure why i have two but that was in my early days of experimenting with social media so um you can reach you can email me at narcissist survivor two like a number two at gmail.

(1:28:38) com um you can book a phone session with me one on one you can dm me on instagram or through facebook and you know if you need extra help and support escape planning figuring out you know legal resources and things like that that’s what i do absolutely wonderful i’m so glad that you are being a resource like that that is like something that probably could have really helped me in my trying time there so they appreciate you yeah same and it’s just so cool that we have social media and podcasts and this this stuff is just rampant everywhere so

(1:29:15) if you want to you know all you have to do is get on a computer or a smartphone type it in and you can find some help that’s so cool yeah absolutely absolutely so different from when i was going through it so same thing oh my god same cool well thank you so much thank you girls so much i really appreciate you having me on it was super enjoyable obviously i’m passionate about my subject so um yeah thanks for giving me a platform thank you thank you go ahead jay i’m just gonna say have a great night we’ll let you know as soon as we um

(1:29:53) release this episode and send you all the links and all that good stuff yeah that’d be lovely and i’ll share it on mine and um yeah thanks that was fun thank you yeah exactly later thank you all right good night good night bye a little more tired after this episode than i usually am for sure that was heavy my head kind of spinned for a little bit that was a that was a lot it’s just such a heavy topic yeah it’s such a heavy topic and it’s such a hard topic to understand fully and to fathom and so

(1:30:32) your mind keeps asking more and more questions trying to figure it out especially people like you and i we’re really trying to figure it out and it it’s almost like you just have to let it be that’s exactly what i was going to say is that i have been noticing that these podcast episodes we record are like ceremonies in a sense like the way you kind of speak about you know ceremonies ceremony something where something where you have this big almost realizations and epiphanies and information and all this stuff comes

(1:31:03) at you at once and it’s just like a uh explosion of all this that you need to absorb in your body and mind and spirit like hold on we can so the difference in ceremony is like you feel the body sensations i guess you like feel the information going in your brain but um speaking of that the other day yesterday at um the paul selig channeling um workshop when he was speaking i was feeling i was feeling my third eye open like i was feeling it like like as if someone put a tool in it and was like cranking it whiter and i was

(1:31:41) feeling information i was feeling not like wisdom go into my brain physically feeling at all but i bring up paul selleck’s workshop because something that really he was really trying to drive home for us in the beginning was um he said you have the right to be everyone does just by being born they have the right to be and so i think me trying to figure out when she’s speaking just trying to figure out and control the information yeah but but no but what exactly is it no but how do we avoid it and how generalizing yeah there wasn’t really a

(1:32:19) straight answer for anything and and i think that i just had to practice what paul said and just even they have a right to be everyone has a right to be not excusing the behavior or making ourselves open to that but just let them be don’t try to figure it out anymore because it’s exhausting i don’t know if that’s applicable you’re talking about letting our someone with the npdb yeah well yeah i mean of course set the boundaries that she spoke of don’t fall prey to the abuse but like for me like trying to fix it

(1:32:57) exactly we’re trying to fix it right now by by like pinpointing and making it black and white right and and there just wasn’t really there’s not straight answers for this because it is such a hard personality disorder to comprehend you know they don’t even have a treatment for it so you’re right and even just by trying to fix someone is like you’re in a sense trying to be empathetic with the edge of control with a side of control um yeah that’s it’s hard for me to wrap my head around a lot

(1:33:29) of it so i think i’m going to absorb more of it and maybe we’ll have some like magic tricks in the future that’ll be about something that helps us get our mind around this or we’ll bring it up we’ll come back around some way or another i’m sure yeah but i’m sorry if you need to take a shower after listening you know what i mean like i feel like i do i am full to the brim with stuff i need to absorb i am stuffed to the brim that’s what i was telling you though earlier is that this is

(1:33:55) it’s such a triggering subject um it was so triggering for me and so anyone who’s listened through like kudos to you because you’re doing the work just by listening it will absorb your subconscious will work on it in your sleep even and and you’re just i love you for listening and uh yeah hey let’s figure out how to adjust this stuff together because if you know and and i hate saying something is incurable because that’s the magician fixer and analyst in me i guess because i don’t believe that generally

(1:34:29) not on not on the case that not speaking against what she’s saying here because she’s talking in what i got from it she’s talking about this is a a um disorder that is you know you are you’ve patterned in something that without empathy you could never even care to change it and so i get what she’s saying is how permanent yeah however curable to me is a bigger word than that curable goes generational through gender yeah let’s bring some hope right i’m sorry so i’m trying to do here

(1:35:02) be a light here in this dark i i almost wanted to say like say something to bring hope and then i was like i think we just gotta we gotta let that sit with us and figure out why we’re so triggered to want to bring hope to it because we’re supposed to be standing in the gray together here jade sometimes the gray’s a little darker gray okay oh fifty shades of it i don’t know but um so thank you so maybe this generation of that person that you know who has npd is not going to be the cure but the next generation or especially

(1:35:37) especially you might be the person who is the mother to someone who has a father who is or mother vice versa the father too has father to a child who has a mother who is someone with narcissistic narcissistic personality disorder in those cases you get to have a chance to not create that pattern again for your child to live in it so that the next generation perhaps does not have to have a bunch of people with npd that would be some hope there is that we can figure out a clear enough way to get extremely clear on what this disorder is

(1:36:20) and not breed it into the next generation of kids yeah that is secure that is so good thank goodness god you said that thank god there is a cure now i have now i feel better it’s just a little longer term than what i don’t like saying i don’t like saying it’s not curable i don’t like saying it i don’t like hearing it i don’t know why but because everything is evolving and everything are you saying that that’s the cure it took all the heavy not all the happiness took a lot of heaviness off

(1:36:53) there’s a lot we’re the cure yeah not raising narcissistic children not that’s right creating narcissistic children yeah be the change and all the people who think they’re empaths that is exactly how you’re doing you’re balancing out the narcissistic i hope people listen to the end of this so they can hear that yeah so all right go ahead with your magic trick since since you you kind of already did one but go ahead okay so we’re going to keep the magic alive we’re going to keep

(1:37:18) it moving um my magic trick today is two things the first thing is very simple if you feel so inclined and are able to take on a little more darkness in your day after listening to this watch the r kelly documentary series called surviving r kelly i can’t do it i can’t do it but go on so for me it was really interesting because uh of course it speaks to his narcissistic personality disorder or his tendencies i don’t know he would ever admit to being that but um you get to see the story of many of these victims of his

(1:37:59) and other people that are on the peripheral of a story that input their own piece which it’s all really interesting and you can take it you know with a grain of salt and take it from whatever your perspective is of course that’s how you will take it um but it’s something to invest some time in if you’re interested in like just experiencing more of whatever this means because like we said it’s a little bit of a gray topic and that might help you get a little clarity in one direction or another

(1:38:25) um and again i know i’ve said it several times on this podcast but if you feel triggered by anything in this podcast i am inviting you we are inviting you to sit with it because this is a very heavy topic and it is something um to just let s sink in so you can figure out how to clarify it because it’s important and you know you taking the time to do that might not only save you from some headache it might um improve your life by finding ways where you’re being too narcissistic or not having enough healthy narcissism or being overly

(1:39:02) empathetic with people who you are you know who are actually toxic to you so there i think is a lot of really important and helpful stuff that you can get out of this if you allow it to to assimilate so okay my other part of my magic trick if you’re not sick of hearing me talk yet is to take a narcissism test and um i’ll put a link in the show notes for the one that we were speaking about earlier that’s the one that i yeah what what did you get yeah so i got a should i don’t think i have it up so i

(1:39:36) got think of like a 14 or 15. so this test that’s on the high end of the average so i want to say the test says that average is between 12 and 15. um high is about uh 20 and above i believe and most like i was saying most celebrities uh hit at 18 because they have a little you know extra narcissism in there which can be taken as a negative or a positive it’s a positive in the sense that it got them to where they are likely or it was a part of that because they were very comfortable in front of you know large

(1:40:10) crowds and they were excited to be the center of attention and but of course that can go into a place where it becomes manipulative and it becomes harmful to others and yeah the average it says is 1415 like you said and over 20 years of narcissism my nine i even thought i was like oh that might be a little high i think it is because i do i want the podcast to be successful so i i want to be successful and i also try to be body positive and so i think that those um raise my score which i don’t consider those two things negative

(1:40:45) um maybe that’s narcissistic no the whole point of that is to understand that narcissism is not a bad thing in all regards we need narcissism as a species it is largely uh you know a huge part of what has allowed us to be progressive and and motivated individuals i mean that is why some of us wake up and strive every day to make you know loads of money but happen to discover some groundbreaking scientific discovery on the way whatever you could you could really credit narcissism for a lot of that now like i said that same

(1:41:26) characteristic in a person can be used for you know you could use this power for good or bad so a lot of it is about again doing the self work around it and of course if it’s creating unhealthy things in your life then figuring out how to change where you’re being overly narcissistic or extreme narcissist you know experiencing extreme narcissism and to get to a more balanced state so jade i think it’s funny because you consider yourself an empath of course and you’re worried about a score that’s at a

(1:41:57) nine which is way below average which is actually unhealthy you know you’re worrying about being overly narcissistic to a degree that you’re now that makes sense like shaming yourself over stuff and the shame part is where an harmful empath yourself so anyway all things to look at if you’re listening um take this test and uh just to i think reiterate some of the things we said on the show that npd is typically diagnosed by a trained mental health professional so this test is not going to be you know what tells

(1:42:33) you you are what tells you your partner is this um but you would go to a trained psychologist or psychiatrist that is trained for specifically um detecting or diagnosing i should say npd and that’s important because this is just a test on the internet of course there’s a lot of gray area with this test it’s not perfect and uh a lot of people with this disorder like we’re saying don’t seek treatment because they don’t think they need any help from anybody else right so i just wanted to give a few things for

(1:43:11) people listening who maybe are worried that they’re in a relationship with someone who is um who has npd and so here five basically i’m gonna list a few things and someone with npd would typically need to meet about five or more of the following symptoms okay so has a grandiose sense of self-importance for example exaggerate achievements and talents expects to be recognized as superior without commit commensurate achievements is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success power brilliance beauty or ideal love

(1:43:55) believes that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by or should associate with other special or high status people or institutions requires excessive admiration has a very strong sense of entitlement for example unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations is exploitive of others for example takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends lacks empathy for example is unwilling to recognize or identify with feelings and needs of

(1:44:36) others is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her regularly shows arrogant howdy behaviors or attitudes um which by the way i just want to say so that’s that’s the list so five or more is what you’re looking for for someone who is at the extreme end which we would call narcissistic personality disorder again you would need a mental health professional who specializes in this to actually diagnose somebody so i wouldn’t go around pointing fingers but that might help you if you are in a

(1:45:14) situation where you feel um that that could be a problem for you um i want to also just you know side note that all of these items i have noticed showed up in my life from time to time before sometimes i have them show up now uh if i’m being really honest and so i think taking this test will help you get an idea of where you’re at now so it’s a really great place to start and figure out where to go from there so that’s it that’s a long ass trick it’s good though and it’s it’s very

(1:45:50) concise on um the you know characteristics so i am i am really thankful for that information mine is really short and simple um to balance that out well i think well i actually learned this from you somewhat but um i think that so what helps what makes a narcissistic person want to continue to abuse you is you having an emotional response because then they’re getting what they want there they they feed off of it yes so if you can stop having an emotional response get upset contact your friend i contact you i contact you know

(1:46:36) uh you don’t want to be too draining but like have a friend that is they know they’re helping you through this they know they’re helping you get through this um time in your life and um you contact them instead of and you tell them what you want to tell this person with this disorder instead so that you can still vent you can still get it out of your system if you need to or get to the point where you don’t need to but whatever you do find a different way to deal with what they’ve said to you because they’re

(1:47:09) trying to get you to have an emotional response and it takes so much practice and so much work because they’ll say one thing and you’ll get you’ll okay i’m good i’m not doing an emotional response and they’ll keep going until you have one so it takes a lot of practice because after the third or fourth thing that they say you you lose it you know which is what they want so um you mentioned to me before not with someone with this personality disorder but just with someone that maybe i have a tough time communicating

(1:47:38) with to talk to them as if they’re siri or alexa to just be robotic robotic to the point um and even have a copy and paste so what i what i have as a copy and paste is your attempt to portray me in a negative light is noted and i disagree with your interpretation of events that’s it like copy and paste it every time almost like um you know like the automated responses it’s your automated response and just send it every time and it’s gonna drive them nuts at first and they may spiral out of control and start

(1:48:20) accusing you and start saying that you’re a child because you’re sending this and that you’re not you’re you’re not able to have a conversation you’re not able to talk grow up be a big girl and talk to me right they’ll say all those things can either don’t reply which just no emotional response or reply with this it’s a copy and paste and do whatever it takes to not have that um not having an emotional response in general is a huge tool in life because if you have an emotional response to everything

(1:48:53) you’re you can’t be happy you’re just drowning in emotions at that point yeah because not all that deserves that type of effort from you is the thing and this certainly you know when you’re talking to a talk you’re talking about trying to communicate with a toxic person because you may you know have something that ties you to their lives so you can’t just cut it off completely um like our guest was talking about if you have kids with a narcissist uh with someone with npd you still need a way to be able to

(1:49:20) communicate what you need to communicate yeah and i honestly i think the copy and paste is a good idea there might be way better ideas but i think that it also helps train you to not have that emotional response because it’s beneficial in all areas you’re going to continue to suffer if you have an emotional reaction to everything that is said to you in life um so if you can sit back and observe things with logic and find power and restraint um and not let words control you that’s all they are is words um

(1:49:52) [Music] and you’re letting that person control you which is what narcissism feeds off of yeah right so if you can let them lose their control on you which will i promise you they’ll spiral out of control at first yeah of course and you’ll you’ll see it and you’ll know it’s working well it’s like you it’s like you you know saying i know you are but what am i i know you are but what am i you know it’s very annoying but it’s also you cannot fight that you think about that you know and it

(1:50:20) worked as a kid and it still works now and it’s in not to like you know add into the story of them saying you’re a toddler whenever you send this to them because that’s just part of them trying to make you emotional um but truly you’re literally just reflecting back to them your truth period this is how this is where i’m going to be i do not any longer want to be involved in your emotionally toxic cycle and so this is all i can give you i’m not going to give you anything more this is my boundary and i’ve said it and

(1:50:57) that’s it yeah beautiful if you can reach that point so right oh i like that good luck with that everyone and i think that’s a good thing to just use in any relationship that’s getting into a toxic place i mean with anybody literally family friends whatever it’s and it doesn’t have to be ridiculous but it’s just like state you’re this is something i actually you know this is going to trail on into a longer thing but um i just was was working with one of my girlfriends the other day and we were

(1:51:29) working through an issue she was having with her partner and she had so much anger because there was some infidelity type of thing going on and she had so much anger and she wanted to say it out loud to well not out loud she wanted to text him all this information you know like i can’t believe you did this and you’re such a piece of and i have all these feelings that i need to get outside of me because they’re so painful to hold inside of me and so i had to write it down all the angry first and then

(1:51:56) we read that through read it read it out loud with anger and like be emotional and then we pulled out from each sentence that she wrote the truth of each sentence with no emotion attached to it right the truth of how i feel not blaming him not how you made me feel this way you know you’re a piece of because but instead i feel sad and disappointed and just relaying that piece and then saying when you you know then we found we basically dug to the core of each of those sentences for her that she laid out and found you know the core of

(1:52:32) the issues for her and what it was triggering actually for her and while that emotion was coming up because in order for emotion to come up you have to be triggered so if you can find that trigger and put it really clearly and concisely with without blaming the other person you can usually actually communicate to them your feelings so that they can absorb it and understand it and that’s where it’s really important i don’t know if someone with npd like again if they don’t have empathy i don’t know if it’s going to be

(1:52:57) helpful but i’m just speaking to to anyone in relationship where that what your magic trick can be super helpful so she was able to describe exactly her triggers like i feel sad and disappointed at the situation and i am being i noticed that it triggered me in this way you know because my father left me when i was little and i felt abandoned whatever her thing was right and that’s you know feels like a pattern or feels like something i’ve been cycling through my whole life period and that’s pretty much it just

(1:53:32) her her side of it and it was really received beautifully by him which is great because he actually does have empathy so so hopefully they’ll be able to figure out how to work through that or work you know on themselves enough to decide what they want to do from there but any case i really love your magic trick so thank you for bringing that up all right bam before we sign off we want to remind you of the little giveaway we’ve got going on for our magic mob we’re picking a couple winners each month to get a hundred dollar amazon

(1:54:05) gift card that’s right you won’t be rich but you’ll be able to buy a couple i don’t know whatever you’re into off of amazon there’s pretty much anything on there um basically all you have to do is leave us a rating and review on your podcast app you can do that right now while you’re listening to the show and once you’ve written your review on the podcast app just snapshot it and send it to us via dm on instagram to at the magic hour we spell magic m-a-j-i-c and by the way very few people have

(1:54:38) actually done this like sent it to our dms we’ve gotten reviews from you guys so thank you so much for doing that part but we want to give you some money so send it to our dm so we know you’re doing it um and we would love to pick you and send you some cashola you have a good chance of winning right now yes all right magic moppers thank you so much for tuning in and taking this journey with us if this episode held some magic for you please share it with your friends and family i know that this was a heavier one but

(1:55:09) we all know people who have suffered from narcissistic abuse and this could in some way help them so uh it would mean so much to us also if you shared this if you left a review like mercedes said don’t forget to join us on our instagram page as well at the magic hour and let us know what your favorite episodes have been so far we appreciate all your feedback and want to know what’s lighting you up yes and we release a new episode every monday so you can catch us again next week or go listen to some of our past

(1:55:39) episodes in our podcast library now we’ll meet you there until then be alive thank you to at rayton royal for our intro jam and to john aaron garza from real and motion productions for producing the show stay magical friends now i gotta do the damn intro can you believe this has been two hours without an intro no i’m gonna have so much cutting out to do yeah you’re gonna have to cut out some my head hurts just thinking about it right now just give it a little time yeah um i think there’ll be some like pretty

(1:56:14) solid big chunks you can cut though yeah i think so um okay all right so think about what you want to say so what do you think now that we did all that though because let’s be honest let’s be real honest yeah she was angry as i text tom that yeah i said this is an angry woman i’m dealing with i honestly don’t feel bad about my original sentence but i get if you still i still think it could be triggering for other victims though yes i get that but i also want to um by the way i think it’s really important

(1:56:52) that you leave in where what was it i said something that we disagreed on and actually leave that in oh for sure because i don’t know i’m leaving all of what you say [Laughter] she pops back on the call we can’t even see her um no but okay so when i go into this if i say i’m being rigorously honest we started when i started researching today’s guest and listening to her story i got really triggered um i was like not into doing this interview for a moment there and i think what was coming up for me was

(1:57:33) regarding the way that she relates her story of being a victim that she’ll speak on on this show does that sound good yes i just don’t think the word annoying is fitting that’s it so the way i just said it was okay okay but that is that enough description i think so okay was the way she relates to story being okay got it i think that was it right change okay i got it changed all right ready yeah all right john hopefully that helps him by this spot we’re going to do the intro now finally hello and welcome boys and babes to the

(1:58:26) magic hour podcast a place where we navigate through life’s peaks and valleys with all the vulnerability and shamelessness we can muster with the help of world-class guests from all walks of life we uncover new truths and valuable tools for manifesting our highest potential i’m your host mercedes terrell along with my partner in shine jade bryce hey you guys today we’re going to be discussing narcissistic personality disorder and while we in no way ever want to shame any mental health disorder we know

(1:58:57) how hard narcissistic abuse can be to overcome we also know how easy it is to fall prey to it so we’re going to be discussing what causes this disorder how to spot it early on in your relationships and how to get through the abuse once it’s happened to you and at the end of the show as always after the guest gets off we have some magic tricks and mercedes has a really good one for you um it’s it’s it’s meaty so uh so so hold on uh hold on for that yeah how to detect narcissism in yourself in

(1:59:30) a really clear concise way that i think anyone can be um it can be helpful for so yeah all right and by the way jade if i’m being rigorously honest when i started researching today’s guest and listening to her story i got really triggered yeah me too really triggered mm-hmm i kind of didn’t want to do the show and i’m going to book the guest and wrote the outline i literally was pissed at you i was like you were yeah i mean i didn’t say anything because i know i had to sit with it because if i’m triggered that

(2:00:01) means i gotta sit with you i was mad at myself too and i wondered if you were mad at me legit i was not into doing this interview for a moment there um and now it’s because it’s a hard topic yeah yeah and now that we’ve done it i’m so glad we did and i think that if you you know you guys listening can sit through it and sit through the triggers that it brings up for you i think that there’s gonna be a lot of people that this like this is one of those episodes that really moves you later you know like in a week when

(2:00:37) you’ve dreamt about it and it’s come up in a million different ways and you figured out what this actually means for you in your life but anyway um i think what was coming up for me was the way that she relates her story of being a victim that she’ll speak on um in the show today so i’m definitely gonna explore that further in this episode like i like i said um we get into all of what my story means in relation to this um and where i both played the victim of a narcissistic uh person of extreme narcissist

(2:01:14) and where i was um acting out extreme narcissism in some of my own relationships so kind of been on both ends of that spectrum not proud to say anything about either side of it but uh i you know how we do on this show we get super vulnerable and open with you guys so hopefully you’ll be cool with me exploring the dark deep that hideous side of myself um yeah so like i said i’d invite you guys to stay with us and sit with where you feel triggered so that perhaps by the end of this episode we can have sorted

(2:01:47) through all those feelings together and i know plenty of narcissists myself included and the people who’ve been hurt by them especially those who’ve grown up with a narcissistic parent um or been married to a narcissist or worked for one and the manipulation and trauma that can come from it so i’m glad we can play a part in trying to bring awareness to this disorder as well as hopefully being an aide in some healing for those who have fell prey to to this type of abuse so jade let’s get on our guest

(2:02:21) yes today’s guest is a public figure i kind of want to take out the word narcissistic and because i felt like the last time i read it i was like why am i saying it so much okay i just realized today’s um sweepers on okay i took out one um i might okay today’s guest is a public figure with over 145 000 followers on instagram all based off of her passion to help others survive narcissistic abuse she specializes in narcissistic abuse recovery and her mission is to spread awareness not only on narcissism but on

(2:03:13) narcissistic abuse as well she is an expert speaker and advocate for victims of domestic violence with both lived experience and many years of in-depth self-study on narcissism the dsmv cluster b personality disorder trauma adverse childhood experiences childhood emotional neglect childhood trauma such as children who witness abuse generational trauma father issues and how these are often interrelated to narcissism please help me welcome narcissistic survivor to the show that was perfect okay all right john not gonna say it but you know what it

(2:03:56) what we’re gonna say here um all right uh what did we say oh no oh no john sorry thank you we love you yeah every episode i know this one’s this one but we haven’t had a rough one like this in a while but this one’s rough um oh boy you wanna stop recording yeah